Using this gemora as only a reference point, how do we define kavod hatzibbur. Does it change over time or is there a classical dictionary-type definition that is accepted by all? I know that this phrase is used many times, such as to the need of two torot when the readings are in different places. But I have not been able to find a commentary that explains the term itself. thanks
fred nebel, Bangor, me USA
I do not yet possesss a clear, dictionary definition of Kavod ha'Tzibur. However, I will attempt to tackle this by considering the question of whether the Tzibur can forego ("Mochel") their Kavod.
What I mean to say is that we find, for instance, in Kidushin 32a that a parent can forego his honor and his children are no longer obligated to honor him. (See SHULCHAN ARUCH YD 240:19 who actually writes that it is advisable for parents to be "Mochel" their Kavod). My question now is, "Can the community be Mochel its Kavod?"
I have found in TESHUVAS MAHARAM SHIK YD 369 DH AVAL (written in the 19th century by a leading follower of CHASAM SOFER of Hungary and cited in SHEMIRAS SHABBOS KE'HILCHASA vol. 2 ch. 65 note 99) who discusses the practice that a mourner sits in a different seat than his normal place in the synagogue. The question is, "Should the Rabbi change his seat when he is a mourner?" Maharam Shik writes that he should not. His reasoning is that since the universal custom is that the Rabbi is designated a special place at the head of the Shul, it is Kavod Tzibur that their leader is honored. It is not therefore fitting for the community to forego this honor. This is because if the prestige of the leader of the community is challenged, this is an insult to the community even more than it is to their leader.
This question requires further study but I think we have seen now an example of absolute Kavod ha'Tzibur which does not change with the course of time. Possibly in this case it could be translated as "self-respect".
KOL TUV
D.Bloom
I found a very useful definition of Kavod ha'Tzibur given by BACH on TUR OC 53:2 DH VE'AIN MEMANIN. BEIS YOSEF there DH VE"KASAV cites RAMBAM HILCHOS TEFILAH 8:11 that someone who does not possess a full beard, even though he is a great sage, should nevertheless not be the prayer leader because of Kavod ha'Tzibur. Beis Yosef comments that according to this, if the community wishes to be "Mochel" its honor, it would appear that they are entitled to do so.
The aforementioned Bach disagrees with Beis Yosef and writes that the community may not be Mochel its honor. Bach writes that if the definition of Kavod ha'Tzibur would have been
(1) the prestige of the community in the eyes of other people, then indeed the Tzibur could be Mochel. However the correct definition is really
(2) the honor of the community in relation to G-d. It therefore is not in accordance with the community's respect that they should send as a prayer leader in front of Hash-m to entreat on behalf of the congregation, someone who does not possess an impressive appearance. This is because one would not send a person without this prestigious appearance to represent the community before an important President - therefore one should certainly not send him in front of the King of the world, the Holy One blessed be He.
Bach writes that according to (2), which is the correct definition, it is clear that the fact that the Tzibur forewent their honor does not make a difference, because G-d might still not be happy with the non-distinguished representative. The fact that the Tzibur appointed such a person to act as its representative suggests that they do not care whether the Chazan will be acceptable and well-respected in front of G-d.
Bach adds that since Chazal enacted an institution because they were concerned with the honor of the public, it is clear that the Tzibur can not forego this. According to this, Kavod Tzibur does not change over the course of time. He also writes that, for all of the cases of Kavod Tzibur mentioned in the Gemara, the Tzibbur cannot be Mochel their honor. Bach adds another dimension to the discussion and points out that if one should say that the Tzibur may be Mochel, this would lead to disunity amongst the Jewish People because some communities would be Mochel and others would not, and therefore the Halachah would vary greatly from place to place. Therefore, according to Bach, Kavod Tzibur is not only constant in time but is also constant in terms of place.
See RIVEVOS VE'YOVELOS (vol. 1 p.420) by Rabbi Ephraim Greenblatt Shlita of Memphis, TN, who writes that the latter Halachic authorities proved that the Tzibur does not possess the power to be Mochel its honor and allow a woman to be called up to the Torah (See also MISHNAH BERURAH 53:23). Their honor therefore is objective not subjective.
KOL TUV
D. Bloom
I appreciate your response. If we are to define the term as "self-respect," What would be the damage in the case of women receiving an aliyah?
Dear Fred,
Thank you very much for your response.
To answer your question, first of all we must find out what the Torah's idea of "self-respect" for women is.
Tehilim (45:14) says: "All the honor of the king's daughter is inward". We also find (Bereishis 18:9) that the Angels asked Abraham where Sarah was and he replied that "she is in the tent". Rashi there comments that Abraham was pointing out that Sarah was modest and therefore stayed at home. In fact, Gemara Bava Metzia 87a says that the Angels also knew that Sarah was in the tent, but they asked Abraham in order to increase his affection for his wife. The fact that Abraham had to be asked where she was reminded him how modest she was and increased her esteem in his eyes.
We see from this that every Jewish woman is really a princess. Not everyone has the same role in life. For some, honor and prestige means being famous and in the public eye. For others it means exactly the opposite: the glory of the princess is actually greatest when she is hidden away from the limelight. Her highest role in life is bringing up her children and helping her husband to build their Jewish home and this is how she achieves real happiness.
Reading from the Torah in public is a Mitzvah by which we show everyone our pride in possessing the Torah and give everyone a chance to hear what the Torah says. It is a wonderful Kavod for the community that we are able to read from the Torah. It therefore makes sense that since the greatest Kavod of a woman is to be in her home with her loving family, the Tzibur should not get the Kavod roles confused by making her public when this is actually the opposite of Kavod for her. If we define Kavod ha'Tzibur as self-respect, the greastest respect we can pay to ladies is to honor their modesty.
(I am not saying that a woman should not go out to work or pursue a career. Sometimes this is necessary, especially nowadays when it is often required more than in former times. However one should always try and remember that this is not an end in itself, but rather a necessity of the hour, but the woman's real place stays in her home.)
So the fact that we do not give an aliyah to women is in no way an insult to them, G-d forbid, but on the contrary is their greatest honor by showing the world that Tznius (modesty) is her highest quality.
People often used to ask the late Rabbi Shach, zt'l, the leader of Torah Jewry, what is the secret of success for children in their Torah studies. He answered that he knew from personal experience that the most important thing was the mother giving her loving care and guidance in Torah to her children.
Rav Shach's mother sent him away to Yeshiva, even though times were very difficult. She used to give Shiurim to local ladies in the small town where they lived, but her main achievement was to guide the boy who was later to lead the whole of the Yeshivah world. This was a living illustration of, "Hear my son the ethics of your father, and do not forsake the Torah of your mother" (Proverbs 1:8) which suggests that a child's Torah comes chiefly from his mother's personal example.
KOL TUV
D. Bloom
I appreciate your response. If we are to define the term as "self-respect," What would be the damage in the case of women receiving an aliyah?
Dear Fred,
Thank you very much for your response.
Here is what the Kollel wrote in answer to a similar correspondence in the past.
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Women and men were created with different roles. One is not greater than the other; they are just different (as is also reflected in their physical makeup). Our Sages have always recognized that the woman is the pillar of Jewish continuity: she is the bearer of the strengths that will ensure not only that the Jewish people stay alive, but that they also thrive. When the family structure breaks down, so breaks the foundation of the nation. The women were entrusted with the responsibility of upholding the foundation. That is a privilege that is not to be taken lightly. As such, the Sages recognized that their involvement in certain areas (particularly those of public exposure) would limit their ability to maintain the high standards which they are expected -- and able -- to maintain for the Jewish nation.
In this context, we can understand the term "Kavod ha'Tzibur" as not simply referring to what the members of the congregation that are gathered in the synagogue will think, since, as you write, many of them won't mind at all. Rather, it is not Kavod for the Tzibur -- the Jewish nation as a whole -- to have its captain doing a menial task on board the ship, while there are much more important and prestigious responsibilities for her to fulfill.
Personally, although I was raised in the modern world which you have described, and I have been part of the work force which has traditionally been the "man's world", my greatest joy is to be with my children, to take an active role in educating and nurturing them so that they, b'Ezras Hash-m, grow up to be dedicated, "erliche" Jews who strive to fulfill the will of Hash-m. Instead of giving me an Aliyah, my sense of fulfillment will come when I see my sons and future generations read from the Torah -- with Kavanah, understanding, and a deep commitment to live by the Torah.
Chani Shaw
P.S. For further exploration into this topic, I recommend Rabbi M. Meiselman's book on Jewish Women in Jewish Law.
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I will only add that people often used to ask the late Rabbi Shach, zt'l, the leader of Torah Jewry, what is the secret of success for children in their Torah studies. He answered that he knew from personal experience that the most important thing was the mother giving her loving care and guidance in Torah to her children.
Rav Shach's mother sent him away to Yeshiva, even though times were very difficult. She used to give Shiurim to local ladies in the small town where they lived, but her main achievement was to guide the boy who was later to lead the whole of the Yeshivah world. This was a living illustration of, "Hear my son the ethics of your father, and do not forsake the Torah of your mother" (Mishlei 1:8) which suggests that a child's Torah comes chiefly from his mother's personal example.
KOL TUV
D. Bloom