More Discussions for this daf
1. Fertilizing a Field 2. The ease or difficulty in relieving oneself 3. Tumah of the wall of avodah zarah that falls
4. Even Mesama 5. Keilim ha'Meshamshin l'Avodah Zarah 6. Health from Studies of Non-Jews
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SHABBOS 82

Shabtai Nachshon asked:

Question:

The Gemarah discusses the problem of a person relieving himself in the field ,where he might transgress the Shabbath if he plucks the grass or

digs the ground for small stones ,as a method of cleaning himself. It is

interesting that the Gemarah did not worry about the effect that he is

relieving himself in the field and as a result he is fertilizing the field, whether by passing solid or water. It is assur to pass water over grass or

other plants on Shabbath , probably under the issur of Zeria? The Gemarah

was not worried about these two problems?

The Kollel replies:

(a) Excellent question! The Chayei Adam in Hilchos Shabbos, Klal 10 #2 quotes the ruling of the Gemara that eliminating in a field is forbidden because one might level the ground. In #3 he writes that there is an Issur d'Oraisa of Mezabel (fertilizing) which is a Toldah of Horesh. However, the Chayei Adam does not connect these two Dinim. I have not been able to find an answer for why eliminating would not be Mezabel.

(b) Regarding urine the Halacha is explicit. In O.C. 336 #3 the Shulchan Aruch rules that it is permissible to urinate on grass as urine is acidic and is detrimental to the grass, so there is no problem of Zorea. There is also no problem of Horesh as moistening the ground with something that is

detrimental to the growth of plants would not be an improvement.

The Biur Halachah quotes the Tiferes Yisrael, who claims that

scientifically, urine has been found to be benificial for plants and therfore urinating on crops should be forbidden because of Mezabel or Horesh. However the Biur Halachah rejects this approach. One of his proofs against the Tiferes Yisrael is from our Gemara, which forbids eliminating in a field out of concern that the person will level the ground, but not out of concern that he is fertilizing. It is known that it is not possible to excrete without urinating, he explains, so obviously urine is not vconsidered to be fertilizer. (Note that the Biur Halachah does not relate to the issue of excrement being a fertilizer.)

I would be happy to hear any answers to your question from other readers.

Be well,

Ilan Segal

Shabtai Nachshon had asked:

Question:

The Gemarah discusses the problem of a person relieving himself in the field ,where he might transgress the Shabbath if he plucks the grass or digs the ground for small stones ,as a method of cleaning himself. It is interesting that the Gemarah did not worry about the effect that he is relieving himself in the field and as a result he is fertilizing the field, whether by passing solid or water. It is assur to pass water over grass or other plants on Shabbath , probably under the issur of Zeria? The Gemarah was not worried about these two problems?

Addendum to the Kollel's previous answer:

The Hazon Ish in Shvi'is 18 #2 writes that according to our Gemora there is no Issur of Mezavel when evacuating in a ploughed field. He suggests that the reasons for this might be that it is considered Kelachar Yadand also it is Eno Miskaven and therefore it is permitted for Kavod haBerios.

Ilan Segal

P.S. - Note that according to the Chazon Ish, the Tiferes Yisrael's question that urine may have fertilizing properties is also answered, and the proof of the Bi'ur Halachah (based on our Sugya) that the Tiferes Yisrael is incorrect, is no longer valid (see below, b)

-Mordecai

ORIGINAL LETTER FOLLOWS:

(a) Excellent question! The Chayei Adam in Hilchos Shabbos, Klal 10 #2 quotes the ruling of the Gemara that eliminating in a field is forbidden because one might level the ground. In #3 he writes that there is an Issur d'Oraisa of Mezabel (fertilizing) which is a Toldah of Horesh. However, the Chayei Adam does not connect these two Dinim. I have not been able to find an answer for why eliminating would not be Mezabel.

(b) Regarding urine the Halacha is explicit. In O.C. 336 #3 the Shulchan Aruch rules that it is permissible to urinate on grass as urine is acidic and is detrimental to the grass, so there is no problem of Zorea. There is also no problem of Horesh as moistening the ground with something that is

detrimental to the growth of plants would not be an improvement.

The Biur Halachah quotes the Tiferes Yisrael, who claims that

scientifically, urine has been found to be benificial for plants and therfore urinating on crops should be forbidden because of Mezabel or Horesh. However the Biur Halachah rejects this approach. One of his proofs against the Tiferes Yisrael is from our Gemara, which forbids eliminating in a field out of concern that the person will level the ground, but not out of concern that he is fertilizing. It is known that it is not possible to excrete without urinating, he explains, so obviously urine is not vconsidered to be fertilizer. (Note that the Biur Halachah does not relate to the issue of excrement being a fertilizer.)