Since the limiting "ach" of "beyom harishon tashbis" indicates part of the day, having hametz is ok, why not say the requirement of "shivas yamim" is fulfilled as long as this 7 days runs unbroken from part of Day 1 of Hag HaMatzos through part of Day 7!! (True there may also be a separate issur of offering the Korban Pesach while still owning hametz, but, lchora, this is a separate matter!!!
having reached the end of the sugya, the question should BETTER BE PHRASED: "Ah" limits, and tashbisu is hal when hiyuv of eating matzah is hal. Instead of torturing ba-yom ha-rishon into refering to the day before HagHaMatzos, why not say, "Tashbisu" AND ACHILAS MATZAH begin, yes at night, but because of "ah," not from the beginning of the night, (if 1/2 the time period makes intuitive sense as the limitation,) AT MIDNIGHT!!!!!
AND SINCE WE DO NOT BRING KORBAN PESACH, OUR TASHBISU REALLY SHOULD START AT MIDNIGHT OF SEDER NIGHT, NOT NOON OF EREV PESACH!!! (at least med'oraisa... )
Rabbi Shmuel Blumberg, New York
The word "Ach" was not said by Achilas Matzah. We therefore have no ability to determine when the Chiyuv of Matzah applies based on a Pasuk regarding Biur Chametz. This is why the Gemara uses the Chiyuv Matzah as a given, and concludes that Biur Chametz must be earlier, using "Ach" to determine when.
This is especially true when we consider that the Korban Pesach is eaten together with Matzos, and according to Rebbi Elazar Ben Azaryah the Pesach cannot even be eaten after Chatzos. It is therefore clearly impossible to say that Achilas Matzah should start at midnight.
All the best,
Yaakov Montrose
Reb Yakov, I think you missed the point occurring to me:
Work backwards:
1. The Mitzvah to eat Matzah applies at night - "Ba'Erev Tochlu Matzos"
2. Eating Chametz is equated to eating Matzah - "Kol Machmetzes Lo Sochelu b'Chol Moshvoseichem Tochlu Matzos"
3. Getting rid of Se'or is equated to eating Chametz [regarding the time that they apply] - "Shiv'as Yomim Se'or Lo Yimatzei b'Vateichem Ki Kol Ochel Machmetzes v'Nichresah" (notice shivas yomim is not used to negate lo yimatzei being obligated from "ba-erev"!!!)
4. Therefore, the zman to perform the Mitzvah of "Tashbisu" is hal simultaneously with hiyuv to eat Mitzvah.
5. Since "Ach" limits the scope of "tashbisu" from applying to entire period of time we would otherwise think it might begin to be obligated -- namely the entire EVENING (of the first day of the 7 days of eating matzoh, not chametz) ON WHICH MATZOT MUST BE EATEN -- EVERYTHING, ALL THREE HIYUVIM --WHICH HAVE CLEARLY BEEN SHOWN TO BEGIN TOGETHER (and that's the ikar limud!) -- ALL BEGIN AT MIDNIGHT,
See what I mean? (Or, to put it differently, now that you understand what you apparently missed about my question, what do you still think i'm missing?)
(By the way, Rebbe Elazar ben Azariah's differing is related to a view about Korban Pesach, and as mentioned in my orignial question, there certainly must be an additional prohibition of possession of leaven at the time of the offering in the afternoon which de facto, if not de jure, moves the seor and chametz prohibitions out of their otherwise binding time linkages to hiyuv achilas matza, so bizman Korban Pesach "ach"'s above quoted connection to zman achilas matza is broken through the "trumping" effect of the Korban-Tashbisu hiyuv. For everyone, then, bizman ha Korban, the zman achilas matzah would begin at evening's onset!)
peace and blessing!
Reb Shmuel, permit me as well to work backward within your thorough response to my original answer.
You basically admit to the statement that b'Zman ha'Korban the Zman Achilas Matzah would begin at the evening's onset. However, you choose to view as a certainty that the Zman Chiyuv Achilas Matzah should be linked to Tashbisu beginning at midnight, and there is a mere "trumping" effect of the Korban Pesach being eaten with Matzah which mandates that the Zman will start at the evening's onset.
If anything, it would seem to me that the opposite should be the case. The Gemara here is working with the Gezeiras ha'Kasuv of Ach. Once we know that according to everyone the Torah stated that the Zman Achilas Matzah is at the evening's onset when the Korban Pesach is being brought, which is the circumstance described in the Pesukim, why should we twist the given of Zman Achilas Matzah according to everyone when we can say that the Zman Achilas Matzah is consistent with what we already see in the Pesukim and that Ach refers to the fourteenth?
Additionally, why would we see fit to differentiate between a Zman Achilas Chametz with a Korban and without a Korban, instead of learning (as did the Gemara), that Ach refers to the fourteenth? This indeed seems to be part of the Gemara's answer to the possibility that Zman Biur is the morning of the fifteenth. The Gemara's answer (after bringing the Hekeshim) is essentially "ba'Erev Tochlu Matzos," that the Mitzvah of Achilas Matzah is the night of the fifteenth.
In my humble opinion, the Gemara did not proceed to ask your question because it already answered your question by bringing up this point of "ba'Erev Tochlu Matzos," which the Gemara does not see fitting to change (as I have explained above). This holds true even when the Gemara introduces the word "Ach," as we can explain it to be referring to the fourteenth.
b'Birkas v'Hayisa "Ach" Sameach,
Yaakov Montrose
Reb Yaakov -
excuse me, but obviously we're into the b'hipa-zone, and too much was left implicit in your response for me to be able to understand your points without iyun for which there's no time.
Since the Gemara doesn't take the tack I spelled out, I certainly accept I may be misunderstanding one or more of the elements of this configuration's givens as they understood them...
Perhaps you can help me with this:
If they are serious about learning the time of chometz (-) from the time of matzoh (+), and the time of "tashbisu" (+) from the time of chometz (-), isn't it just straight mathematics that whatever shifts one of them, shifts all of them, (in our case, tashbisu being limited by the particle "akh,")?
by the way, hope you didn't mean to diminish my simkhas yom tov....
interesting that Akh's absolute/imperative quality implicit in your blessing isn't its force in the mesorah of halachic midrash...
may we be blessed with increasing freedom,
SB