More Discussions for this daf
1. Shoteh is Patur from Mitzvos 2. Mary 3. Why did Rav Huna cry when he came to 2 'happy' Pesukin?
4. angel of death making a mistake 5. Tumtum 6. Pasuk To Exclude a Safek
7. Malach ha'Maves 8. Ma'aseh of Miriam 9. Half slave should not have children
10. חיוב ערל בראייה לפי הרמב"ם
DAF DISCUSSIONS - CHAGIGAH 4

Gershon Lewis asks:

How is it possible that the angel of death, who is a shaliach of Hash-m could make a mistake-and we're speaking about a major mistake.

Gershon Lewis, Jerusalem, Israel

The Kollel replies:

1) Clearly there were higher Heavenly forces that wanted him, and caused him, to make this mistake.

2) The crucial question here is how is it possible that someone can die without "Mishpat," justice? In other words, why did Hash-m want the Mal'ach ha'Maves to make this terrible mistake that seems to contradict the laws of justice?

3) I found one of the Mefarshim who discusses this a little. This is on the Rif in Berachos, page 34b in the pages of the Rif. Talmidei Rabeinu Yonah there (DH Patach) cites the Gemara in Shabbos (55b) where the conclusion is that it is possible sometimes that a person dies without having sinned. This is itself a difficult concept to understand, but Rabeinu Yonah does add to this that even though a person might die even though he performed no transgressions, nevertheless all the ways of Hash-m are "Mishpat" and Hash-m knows why He does what He does.

4) The Chidushei Anshei Shem, printed in the margin, asks on Rabeinu Yonah from our Gemara in Chagigah 4b, where we learn "Yesh Nispeh b'Lo Mishpat" -- some people die without Mishpat. He appears to answer this question by saying that it might occasionally happen that someone dies without Mishpat. With the vast majority of people, though, everything works according to justice, but there are sometimes unusual circumstances where other factors are involved in why people die.

5) Obviously, this is a very difficult concept to understand, but I would like to suggest a possible approach. Sometimes it might happen that a person does not deserve to die because of his transgressions, but Hash-m sees that it would be better for this person if he would die earlier. Possibly Hash-m sees that if the person would live he would be tempted to do certain sins, or possibly he would witness very upsetting events happening around him. As human beings, we would not be able to say if it is best for this person to live or not, but Hash-m knows better than us and decreed that this person's time has come. So this person did not die according to the laws of justice, but still Hash-m knows why He does what He does, as Rabeinu Yonah says.

Kesivah v'Chasimah Tovah,

Dovid Bloom

Bentzion Meltzer comments:

There are precedents to be found in Shmos for points 4 and 5 and to the question in general. When Moshe questioned Hash-m about the children being cemented into the buildings of the walls, Hash-m told him to pick one who would live. Moshe did so and this child was MIcha who took the plaque (with Hashems name and 'Arise O Ox' on it) from the Nile where Moshe had just caused the iron sarcophogus of Yoseph to float, threw it into the cauldren of molten gold and brought forth the golden calf. Even though the child at one point was innocent and pure, only Hshem knows the outcome of our lives and when it is the proper time for us to pass away.

** One could argue that Moshe brought untold calamity and destruction to the Jewish people becasue of his questioning of Hash-m's judgement and his own misplaced sense of mercy. That the Aigel and all of the horror that came with it came to be because Moshe did not trust Hashems judgement. How does Moshe get a 'free ride' for that incredible lack of faith?

Another explanation goes to the Ball Shem Tov's Sod of Transmigration where a person in a later life might have to give up his possessions or even his life to mitigate a transgretion of an earlier transmigration in order to cleanse the Neshama.

Bentzion Meltzer

The Kollel replies:

1) It appears to me that Moshe Rabeinu did not in fact get a "free ride" for what happened with Michah, and I will attempt to show sources for this.

2) First, the Gemara (Sanhedrin 111a) tells us that Moshe was punished for complaining about the suffering that Bnei Yisrael underwent in Egypt. Hash-m said to Moshe that he would see what He would do to Pharoah but he would not see the war against the 31 kings in Eretz Yisrael, which his successor Yehoshua conducted.

3) However, the above Gemara does not say that he received this punishment for saving Michah, but rather it was a general punishment for being "Meharher Achar Midosav" -- for questioning the ways of Hash-m.

4) We can understand a bit more why Moshe did not receive this punishment explicitly for saving Michah if we look at Rashi in Sanhedrin 101b (DH Nitmachmech). Rashi writes that after Moshe complained to Hash-m about the children being cemented into the building, Hash-m said to him that He was destroying the bad weeds from the people but He added: "If you wish, you may try this out and remove one of them from the building," and in response Moshe saved Michah. We learn from Rashi that Moshe did not actually go against Hash-m's command, because he did receive permission to take the risk and to save Michah. However, Moshe still did not possess the degree of faith that he should have had on his level, because he should not have wanted to carry out this experiment.

5) I suggest that the reason why Hash-m gave Moshe a choice on this matter was because it was so much against the nature of Moshe to see this suffering and do nothing about it. Moshe was the compassionate shepherd who was chosen to be the leader of the Bnei Yisrael; his mercy on the sheep was a reflection of his mercy on every single member of his people. Therefore, Hash-m did not demand from Moshe that he should witness this suferring of the children without being able to do anything about it, but He did nevertheless expect Moshe to believe that what was happening was all for the good of the people.

6) I would also like to suggest a Chidush and say that even though he received permission from Hash-m to do this, he still did not get a "free ride" for saving Michah. My source is Bava Basra 109b, which tells us that Yehonasan, who worshippped Avodah Zarah, was in reality the son of Gershom the son of Moshe. Even though the verse tells us that he was the son of Menasheh, it should really read Moshe instead of Menasheh, but it is written as Menasheh because the latter was famous for his terrible sins of Avodah Zarah, so someone who worships idols is associated with Menasheh.

It therefore may be possible that the fact that Moshe suffered this disaster in his family, that his grandson worshipped Avodah Zarah, shows us that he did not actually get a free ride for his mistake of saving Michah.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom

The Kollel adds:

I found (cited in the Hebrew Mesivta edition) a Rabeinu Bachye which may help us a lot to understand this concept of the Angel of Death making a "mistake."

1) Rabeinu Bachye (Shemos 21:13) tells us that if a person kills another person inadvertently, he must go into exile.

Before we consider what Rabeinu Bachye writes, it is worth contemplating what it means that A inadvertently killed B. Since we believe that whatever happens in this world comes ultimately from Hash-m, how is it possible that somebody could be killed by mistake? If one thinks about it, there might not be so much difference between the Angel of Death killing by mistake, and between a human being killing by mistake.

2) Putting this quandry on the side for the moment, we will now look at the words of Rabeinu Bachye. The verse in Shemos 21:13 says, "And if someone did not plan it, but Elokim chanced it his way [and he killed the victim], then I have set aside a place to where the killer may flee."

Rabeinu Bachye writes that this concept that "Elokim chanced it his way" or "Elokim invited it into his path" means that he killed him because the victim was already liable for the death penalty for some different transgression. This is why the Divine Name "Elokim" is used, because this Name represents "Midas ha'Din" -- the attribute of Judgement.

3) Rabeinu Bachye then cites Mishlei 13:23, which is mentioned in our Gemara: "and some perish without judgement."

Rabeinu Bachye writes that this means that some people die, not as a judgement for this sin, but as a punishment for a different transgression for which they are already liable.

4) Rabeinu Bachye does not cite the Gemara here in Chagigah, but since he cites the verse in Mishlei upon which our Gemara is based, it is reasonable to assume that the concept he is explaining would apply to our Gemara as well.

Therefore, I think we can explain our Gemara as follows. The Angel of Death commanded his Shali'ach to bring a certain Miriam. The Shali'ach made a mistake and brought a different Miriam. The first Miriam was liable for death because of a certain transgression she had committed. She did not receive that punishment. However, the second Miriam also deserved to die because of a different crime. Even though the Angel of Death was not aiming for the second Miriam, nevertheless her punishment was fitting but for a different reason. A mistake happened in the way in which the process of justice was carried out, but the final punishment received was just.

5) This could also be the explanation when somebody is inadvertently killed. According to the Heavenly process of justice, it may not have been that the person was condemned to die now. However, he did certainly deserve the punishment because of some other sin that he had already done.

6) Accordingly, this is Rabeinu Bachye's Peshat in "some perish without judgement." This means that some people die as a punishment for a different sin, not the one that the Angel of Death was trying to punish for now.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom