More Discussions for this daf
1. Lashon: external or internal organ? 2. Being koneh an elephant 3. Applying the Kinyan of Hagbahah to an Elephant
DAF DISCUSSIONS - KIDUSHIN 25

Rabbi Reuven Chapman asks:

The Gemarrah considers two solutions to apply hagbahah to an elephant (i.e. a Simta or a platform created with grape vines). Why did they not consider using a hand powered mechanical hoist using pulleys to lift the elephant like a car mechanic uses to lift an engine out of a car. They did have this technology back then. In Yoma 3, 10: Ben Katin is praised for having developed a device for lowering the kiyor into a well every night.

Rabbi Reuven Chapman, Baltimore, MD USA

The Kollel replies:

1) It is not so clear what technology was widely available. Even though the "Muchni", of Yoma 37a, was capable of lowering the Kiyor into the well, this does not prove that it could lift an elephant, which is a lot heavier than the Kiyor and its water. Also, do not forget that we only know that the Muchni was available in the Beis Hamikdash; which was the central national buliding of the Jewish People; whilst our Gemara is discusiing the more average indidvidual who owned an elephant {this is assuming that average individuals did own elephants, which is a different discussion!) and had less technical capabilities than the directors of the Beis Hamikdash.

2) In addition, the Gemara is chiefly teaching us the Halacha about what is considered Hagbahah for an item which is difficult to lift (even if it is physically possible by sophistacted methods in comparison to the prevalent technology of the day). The Gemara teaches us a few Halachic possibilites (a) Chalipin (b) renting the place where the elephant is (c) putting 4 legs in 4 utensils in a Simta (d) the elephant reaches up to eat food. These teach Halachic principles whilst if the Gemara would have just mentioned a lever system for an elephant this would not teach us any Halachic rules, and people not in possession of the lever would not know how to effect the Kinyan.

Wishing you a Kesivah vaChasimah Tovah

Dovid Bloom

Follow-up reply:

1) I want to say that even if one lifted an elephant with a crane, this would not be a good kinyan according to Rashi; who writes in our Mishnah 25b DH Nikneis that one cannot acquire a cow through Meshichah, because it is not the normal way to lead a cow in front of oneself with Meshichah. We learn that, according to Rashi, a kinyan only works if one does an action which it is usual to do for this item. Since it is not the usual way to lift an elephant with a crane (this applies nowadays also, not only in the times of the Gemara - DB) this would mean that lifting an elephant with a crane is not an effective kinyan according to Rashi.

2) However the Ran; on the Rif; bottom 9a in Rif pages, disagrees with Rashi. At the top of 9b the Ran writes that Hagbahah is an effective kinyan even if one did it on an item which it is not usual to lift up. So one could argue that according to the Ran one could acquire an elephant by lifting it with a crane. However I want to say that in this case the Ran would agree to Rashi. This is because there is a rule "Botla Da'ato Eitzel Kol Odom" (see for intance Sukah top 4a); sometimes a person does something which is so unusual that we not only say that it is not the usual way, but we say that absolutely no-one does this. The Taz in Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat #194 writes that if one does a kinyan in a way which is "Botla Da'ato Eitzel Kol Odom" then everyone agrees that this is not a good kinyan. Sdei Chemed; Ma'arechet Beit #59; cites Rav Shlomo Kluger who disagrees with the Taz and writes that the rule of Botal Da'ato Eitzel Kol Odom only applies to Halachos where something is eaten in an unusual way, but Sdei Chemed agrees to the Taz that it applies to kinyan also.

Therefore, I argue that if one lifts an elephant with a crane, this would be such an unusual thing to do; especially as one has the 4 alternative options that I mentioned in part 2) of my first answer; that everyone will agree that this strange kinyan does not work.

KOL TUV

Dovid Bloom