1. RAMBAM HILCHOS AVADIM DALED HALACHA ZAYIN.
Brings up a myriad of questions
d'Ma'os ha'Rishonos Nosnim l'Shem Ishus ... Eino Tzarich la'Ses Lah Klum.
Before leaving kinyan isha to Avadim...
And according to Rav Chisdah it's a mecher Avodah...at the same time if Yiud is not part of the fathers sale how can he be mekadesh her without giving her anything?
And if they're connected, all the attempts is early blat that kesef and biah try to compare kiddushin to AMA ivriyah...
2. How is the Machlokes of the shtar being a mocher or koneh Rav Chisdah & Rav Huna
That is a Machlokes in the style of the shtar not shtar itself.
If we say like Rav Chisdah even if the father sold her for more than a perutah and wrote a shtar as a mocher....how can the money in that transaction be applied to Yiud as the RAMBAM stated?
Avrahom , United States
1)
(a) It is the other way round "Before leaving kinyan Avadim to Isha". She starts off being an Eved but then she becomes a wife.
(b) Avrohom, Boruch She-Kivanta! Your question is asked by the Minchas Chinuch Mitzvah 43:18 DH veHineh who writes that he does understand how; according to the opinion that the father writes the Shtar of the Ama Iviryah; so how does the master acquire her for kidushin; he has not given her anything?!
KOL TUV
Dovid Bloom
Follow-up reply:
1)
(a) One of the Rishonim; the Shittah Lo Noda leMi; written by an unknown author, writes that according to Rav Chisda:-
??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????
"If the master wants to do Yiyud he does Yiyud with the money at the beginning".
The commentary to the "Shittah" writes that the Ama was acquired by the shtar, but presumably the master also gave money; according to the value of the work she would do; in order to buy her. The master can now do Yiyud with this original money. Ma'os HaRishonos leKidushin Nitnu means that the money that was given at the beginning according to her value; and was not money given in order to effect a kinyan, but was money to buy the value of her future work power; was also given on the understanding that later on the master can use this money to do Yiyud if he wishes.
So he did give her something at the beginning; he gave her money which either buy her work power or her marriage power.
(b) I did not understand why you wrote, Avrahom, that only according to Rav Chisda it is a mecher avodah. I should have thought that also according to Rav Huna it is a mecher avodah. The dispute between Rav Chisda and Rav Huna only concerns who writes the shtar; is it the master or the father; but everyone agrees that the master is buying her in order to work (with the option later on of also marrying her with Yiyud).
2) Now, according to Shittah Lo Noda LeMi that we saw above, we can say that; according to Rav Chisda; the money that the master gave to the father was given both for the value of work that she would later do, and also may be used to effect kidushin if the master decides to marry her.
Yasher Koach
Dovid Bloom
According to the Pnei Yehoshua, Yiyud does not apply when the Ama Ivriyah is bought with a Shtar:-
There is a big Chidush that the Achronim cite in the name of the Pnei Yehoshua above 14b DH Gemara Eved Ivri (in the middle of a long paragraph). Pnei Yehoshua quotes the verse (Shemos 21:7) "When a man sells his daughter as an Ama". He writes that the next verse "That he did Yiyud for him and redeemed her" is a continuation of the previous verse and teaches that Yiyud applies when she is bought with money. However the verse 21:10 "If he takes another" (from which the Gemara here 16a learns that Ama Ivria is compared to any other wife, who is acquired by a Shtar) does not have to be similar to Yiyud.
Pnei Yehoshua writes that we can prove that if she is acquired through a Shtar it does not have to be similar to Yiyud, because it seems that he acquires her with a Shtar even though he does not give money at all [this disagrees with the Shittah Lo Noda LeMi that I cited above -DB] in the same way that "another" (i.e. an ordinary wife) does not receive any money. Pnei Yehoshua writes that Yiyud is impossible without money, so we have now proved that when the Ama is acquired with a Shtar the din of Yiyud does not apply.
I found in the sefer "Minchah Chadashah" (Poprash) Mitzvah 43:2 that he writes "It emerges explicitly from the mouth of the great Gaon, the Pnei Yehoshua, that the Mitzvah of Yiyud only applies when the Ama Ivriyah is acqured by money; not when she is acquired by Shtar" (Mincha Chadasha is cited by Dvar Shmuel Kidushin 14b, page 38, DH uBeSefer).
So, according to the Pnei Yehoshua, this question does not start because Yiyud does not apply when the Ama Ivriyah is acquired by Shtar.
Dovid Bloom
We can say that Shiitah Lo Noda LeMi and Pnei Yehoshua agree:-
I wrote above that Pnei Yehoshua disagrees with Shittah Lo Noda LeMi. However, looking at this again, I think they can be reconciled.
Shittah writes that; according to Rav Chisda that the father writes the Shtar through which the Ama is acqured; if the master wants, he can do Yiyud with money at the beginning. In fact, Pnei Yehoshua fits in well with this because he also writes that Yiyud is only possible with money. According to P.Y. if the father would write the Shtar for his daughter and give over money for Yiyud; which are either used at the beginning for Yiyud which will apply later on, or are used later on to effect Yiyud; this would be a good Yiyud, not because when she is bought with a Shtar, that the Yiyud works through the Shtar, but because on most occasions the master also must give money and this money provides the Halachic requirement that Yiyud must be done throuhgh money, not through Shtar.
Dovid Bloom