More Discussions for this daf
1. Selling leaky Chametz on the 14th 2. Se'udah Shlishis on Shabbos/Erev Pesach 3. The sign that the time to refrain from Chametz has arrived
4. Nishpach ha'Dam 5. Lachmei Todah 6. נשפך הדם
DAF DISCUSSIONS - PESACHIM 13

Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander asked:

Does Rabbi Yanai argue with Rabbi Hanina? Perhaps he just offered another

possibility? From the language ("Mishum Rabbi Yanai Ameru") it seems that the gemara in

Bavel is discussing the discussion in Eretz Israel, where both Rabbi Hanina

and Rabbi Yanai lived.

I wonder whether it was "common" that ALL the blood of a Korban Toda was

spilled. If I remember - only if all was spilled is the Korban lost and

hence the Lehem. Surely if there was a great crush of all the people bringing one Korban

Toda, and for each Korban Toda there were 40 Lahmai Toda - Albeit only 10

were Hametz - there was a great oversupply of Lehem, and it is much more

likely that some Lehem was left over than that All the blood of a Toda was

spilt.

However - it seems there were different times in the practice of the

general public: we have two very different descriptions of the way the

public and their sacrifices were handled: one description is of great

quantities of blood, which was carried by a chain of kohanim from the

Kabbalat HaDam to the Zerika, with the full utensils being handed from one

to the next and in parallel the empty ones returned; on the other hand we

have a description of only a limited number of people entering at one time,

and only three groups. This may have been the case when the Romans

interfered with the activities in the Beit Hamikdash - and this may be the

situation Rabbi Eliezer referrs to when he explains "B'Derech Rehoka" -

even at the entrance to the Azara, when the Roman police wouldn't let more

than a limited number of Jews celebrate the Pessah properly. In that case

they would also not permit great masses on the 13th to bring their Korban

Toda!

Could it not be that the answer of Rabbi Hanina applies when there were

great masses of people who on the 13th brought their Toda, and there were

Lahmei Toda left over, because all the people around had their own Toda and

lehem to eat and could not eat the Lehem of others; as one explanation of

the shortened period of the eating of the Toda (the day and the following

night in Toda, and NOt the following day also as with other Shelamim) - was

to cause the person bringing his Toda to invite many guests to participate

in the eating of the korban and its Lehem, to partake in the thanksgiving

"Before the Lord" - which was fine on other days, but just before the Moed

there were very many, so there were leftover Lahmei Toda.

Rabbi Yanai showed us the possibility when, even though only few people

were to bring sacrifices, and there was no problem with the Lehem, since

the Lehem could be eaten throughout Jerusalem - we could have Lehem Pasul:

as Rabbi Yanai suggested: in the case where all the blood of one was spilt.

LeShana Tova TeKatevu veTeHatemu

Yeshyahu HaKohen Hollander

The Kollel replies:

(a) It seems that Rebbi Yanai comes to argue, because Rebbi Chanina's explanation is more straightforward and fits better with the wording of the Mishnah, which says that the loaves were "Pesulos." Rebbi Yanai -- who explains that the loaves were actually Kosher -- has to give a forced explanation for the word "Pesulos" and say that it means that they were Kosher but their Korban was not slaughtered. Since Rebbi Chanina's explanation is more straightforward, it must be that Rebbi Yanai argues with it, because otherwise he would not give a less straightforward explanation.

(b) Usually, the Pesul of the blood being spilled occured because the Kohen doing the Zerikah fell down. In such a case, all of the blood would have been spilled. The Gemara tells us that the utensils in which the blood was carried were pointed on bottom, and thus they could not be set down straight, and when they fell their entire contents spilled.

(c) Your suggestion is very interesting! We don't find, though, in Chazal the difference that you describe in the way the service was conducted due to Roman interference. Furthermore, the Gemara later implies that then Rebbi Eliezer said that five Amos from the Azarah was a "Derech Rechokah," that it was so in all times, and not just in the times of persecution.

The contradiction that you describe concerning the the way the sacrifices were handled (that is, whether there were many people inside the Azarah or not) is not clear to me. From all of the Mishnayos in the fifth Perek it is clear that there were overwhelming crowds in the Azarah, and in the same Mishnah which describes the crowds, it states that there were three groups involved in the Korbanos (the third group had less people than the others, only because everyone was eager to join the first two groups).

Thank you and Yashar Ko'ach for your insights! Please forgive us for the delay in responding to you.

Shanah Tovah!