Hi, id like to know if my understanding is correct, please.
As for Rashi in the sugya (Rashi ktav yad included), we have that melacha of davar haaved in the aveilus time is permited if done by others, as we see in the case of zetav hafuchin. If it is not a melacha of davar aved, it is not permissible at all.
The kula given by the gemara in daf 19b, in the case of a met who died two days before yom tov, the kula given by Rashi ktav yad over there is that even a melacha of not davar aved may be done in that period, also by others.
If so, what is different the case of zetav hafuchin and "hayta melachto beyad acherim, osin betoch bateihen aval lo betoch beito", why is that so? Even zetav hafuchin mistama we are saying that it is on the avels property; although not his home, but his "firm" or company of olive pressing!
As for tosfot, we have in the sugya on daf 19b, that the braita on 11b when says of hayta melachto beyad acherim is dealing on a no davar haaved melacha, because davar haaved melacha may be done even at his property/home. It is good for tosfot why zetav hafuchin is the same case of hayta melachto beyad acherim. But what is the kula given for a case where the guy died two days before the yom tov aliba detosfot??
Thank you very much
Joseph Kayeri, Sao Paulo
(a)
1) The Gemara on 19b is discussing a different scenario than 11b. On 19b he buried the deceased relative 2 days before Yomtov. On Yomtov he does not openly practice Aveilus but after Yomtov he keeps another 5 days of Aveilus to make it up to a total of 7.
[ It seems that the Halacha does not follow the Gemara bottom 19b, since the Mishnah 19a states that if the deceased was buried 3 days before Yomtov, the shiva is cancelled. Rashi 19a writes that after Yomtov he does not need to count any more. This is not like bottom 19b that after Yomtov he counts 5 more days. The source of 19b is a Tosefta, which can disagree with the Mishnah, but the Halacha is that "regel mevatel shiva"; Yomtov cancels the 7 day mourning]
2) I have on Otzar HaChochmah, Perush Rashi leMasechet Moed Katan (which may be what you refer to as Rashi ktav yad, Joseph), and on 19b it reads (according to the text change given in the notes at the bottom)
"And his work may be done by others - in those 5 days which are not as severe as if they would have been immediately after the burial. This is not the same as if this would be in the days of full-fledged mourning, as we said above that one may only do davar haaved in the days of his mourning, for instance zetav hafuchin etc."
3) The point is that 19b is discussing days of avelius which are only of secondary importance because Yomtov came in the meantime. A significant amount of time has passed between the burial and the mourning. Therefore even though according to the Tosefta the mourner himself cannot work, however others may work for him, even though this does not involve loss. In contrast, zetav hafuchin involves a loss, so if necessary it can be done on his premises.
4) An example of Hayta mekachto beyad acherim might be that he owns a clothing company and gives work to people to do in their own houses. The Rema Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 380:18 writes that the heter only applies if he gave them the work before he became an aveil. The people who make the clothes for him work at their home, and it is probably not well known that they are doing work for the mourner so this is permitted even though no loss is involved.
(b) Answer to question on last Tosfos on 19b:
Joseph, Baruch She-Kivanta to the question of Rabbi Akiva Eiger in Gilyon HaShas here!
1) The Giltyon Hashas asks on Tosfos that here we are lenient only after 7 days from the beginning of mourning have finished. It seems that Gilyon Hashas is asking that since, in our Gemara a full 7 days have passed since the beginning of Aveilus, this means that we should be more lenient than in the first 7 days of aveilus; so why does Tosfos give the same din for the first 7 days as for the later days? R. Akiva Eiger concludes with ??"?
???? ???? ???? this question requires a great amount of research in order to answer it!
2) When R. Akiva Eiger writes ??"? this tells us that it is not at all easy to answer the question correctly!
3) I found that Yalkut Hameiri gives a possible answer based on Rashi 11b DH B'beito (5 lines from the bottom of the page). Rashi writes there that the reason that others may not do his work for him in his house is because people may come to suspect the mourner and say that he himself is helping them to do the work.
4) Yalkut Hameiri writes that it may be that Tosfos 19b agrees with Rashi 11b. In addition Tosfos maintains that if the problem is the suspicion of others, then we will not be more lenient after the 7 days are finished than before they are finished. Yalkut Hameiri writes that, on the contrary, if the problem is that others are suspicious then there is actually more reason to be careful about this after the end of 7 days than before. The reason is because onlookers might think that the mourner takes a lighter attitude towards the whole issue, since he has completed the 7 days. Therefore he really might help others with the work in his house. This is why Tosfos writes that even after the 7 days we only give a heter to do the work in his house if a financial loss is involved.
5) According to this, the answer to R. Akiva Eiger's question is that we are not actually more lenient after the 7 days have finished, because, when suspicion is involved, we have to be just as concerned even though the prohibition that others might think he is doing is actually a lighter one since, on the contrary, people think that he does not take this prohbition seriously.
Chodesh Tov
Dovid Bloom