Was the Gra the first person in history to interpret Rabbi Yehuda in Pesachim different than Rabbenu Tam? Or were there always two different shitas about tseys hakochavim?
And if both cases only refer to Eretz Yisroel, then why do people keep davka 72 minutes outside Eretz Yisroel? Especially since 13.5 minutes is itself too early? I read that even in Yerushalayim 13.5 isn't accepted despite R. Yehuda... Thanks.
David Goldman, USA
1) See the Mishnah Berurah in Bi'ur Halachah 261:2, DH mi'Techilas, who writes that the G'ra is not a new Shitah but was already stated by the early Ge'onim -- Rav Sherira Ga'on, Rav Hai Ga'on, Rav Nisim Ga'on, and others. Indeed, the Shitah of the G'ra is often also referred to as the Shitah of the Ge'onim.
2) In fact, the Bi'ur Halachah (261:2 DH she'Hu) cites the G'ra that all the times mentioned in the Gemara refer only to the latitude of Bavel, while in the places where the G'ra resided, which are more northerly, the twilight period is always longer.
3) The Mishnah Berurah, in Sha'ar ha'Tziyun 261:20, writes that according to the G'ra to Orach Chaim 459:2 (DH v'Shi'ur), the length of time for 3/4 of a Mil is a little more than 1/4 of an hour. The G'ra there writes that the time length of a Mil is 3/8 of an hour, which is 22 1/2 minutes. According to this, 3/4 of a Mil is almost 17 minutes. This is a length of time for Bein ha'Shemashos which is more accepted in Yerushalayim.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
If that is so, then why did Rabbenu Tam have to make such a difficult explanation about his bein hashmashoss and tseys hakochavim based on Pesachim if he could simply have accepted the Geonim's position that it referred to the coming out of all starts, and in Shabbos the gemara is just giving a time of 3/4 mil for that location. But in other parts of the world it could be later than 3/4 mil. Why did he have to bother with the idea of two shkiyas? This might also tie in with the issue of the fact that he and other rishonim did not accept some of our sources that say the earth is round (i.e. in the Yerushalmi), but that the earth is flat, and whether this has any effect on his shita.
1) It seems to me that the reason why Rebbi Yehudah, in Pesachim 94a or Shabbos 34b, did not mention what amount of time one has to wait until nightfall in different parts of the world, is that in those days the only significant Jewish communities were in Eretz Yisrael and in Bavel, and these were on approximately the same latitude. Therefore, Rabeinu Tam could not have reconciled the contradiction between the two Gemaras by asserting that the Gemara in Pesachim was referring to northern countries.
(Even though we do find that Tosfos in Kidushin (29b, DH Ha) writes that Shmuel, who lived in Bavel, taught what the Halachah was for Eretz Yisrael, while Rebbi Yochanan, who lived in Eretz Yisrael, taught the Halachah for Bavel, this is because Shmuel had students from Eretz Yisrael who traveled to study under him, and Rebbi Yochanan had students from Bavel, as Tosfos writes there. However, since there was not a significant contingent of students from other parts of the world, Rebbi Yehudah in our Sugya would not have taught the Halachah for latitudes other than Eretz Yisrael and Bavel.)
2) I found that the Tosfos Rid (Shabbos 34b, DH Eizehu) explains the opinion of Rabeinu Tam according to the principle that the world is round.
Rebbe,
The sun sets much earlier here in NY than in Rabbeinu Tam's France. Shabbos is over much later all over Europe. The sun sets differently than it does in Vilna also. It also sets differently than it would in Bavel or Eretz Yisroel. I think twilight is a much smaller amount of time in Eretz Yisroel and in Africa where the sun sets much quicker with less beyn hashahot time. Wouldn't that mean that Rabbeinu Tams' times are simply not applicable here. He would have based his times on his observations of the natural phenomenon that he witnessed in France besides for what it says in the gemara. Didn't the Vilna Gaon say "Hachush makchish," the senses contradict R. Tam's view?
Shouldn't we observe when the three medium stars come out or use a known scientific measurement for when that would be to determine tzait?
Sam Kosofsky
1) Rav Moshe Feinstein zt'l writes in Igros Moshe (Orach Chaim 4:62 DH Aval) that in many cities in the U.S., by 50 minutes after sunset the sky is full of stars and it is just as dark as in the middle of the night. It is not less dark than it was by 72 minutes after sunset in the places where most Jews used to reside in Europe.
2) Rav Moshe assumes that 50 minutes in the U.S. is equivalent to the 72 minutes of Rabeinu Tam. Therefore, he makes the following calculation. In Europe, one would divide the 72 minutes into 16 parts (there are 4 Mil, and each Mil in turn is divided into 4 parts), so in the U.S. one divides the 50 minutes into 16 parts.
The first 3 parts of the 16 is Bein ha'Shemashos according to the Gra. The last 3 parts of the 16 is Bein ha'Shemashos according to Rabeinu Tam. The middle 10 parts are certainly night according to the Gra, and certainly day according to Rabeinu Tam.
If 50 minutes in the U.S. is equivalent to 72 minutes in Europe, it follows that in the U.S. each part is 50/16 minutes, which is 3 and 1/8 of a minute. Therefore, Bein ha'Shemashos of the Gra is 9 + 3/8 minutes.
3) Rav Moshe writes that according to this, for those in a hurry on Motza'i Shabbos, one can permit Melachah after 50 minutes, which is night according to Rabeinu Tam, me'Ikar ha'Din, but l'Chatchilah it is correct to wait 72 minutes.
4) Concerning the general question of the dispute between the Gra and Rabeinu Tam, Rav Moshe was of the opinion that one should adopt the stringency of Rabeinu Tam. See Igros Moshe, Yoreh Deah 4:17:26, where he writes that the Gra himself did not put his own Shitah into practice even in Vilna. While there were Talmidim of the Gra who followed the Gra's Shitah, they did not rule like this for others. Rav Moshe writes that he is aware of the fact that world class scholars, among the students of the students of the Gra, were stringent on this matter and did not follow the Gra. He writes that we should also be stringent and follow our custom according to Rabeinu Tam, to wait until the stars come out.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
Thank you very much. So you mean that Rabbenu Tam could not conceive of the approach of the Gra, or simply discuss how the halacha of Rabbi Yehuda in the gemara Shabbos would apply logically to other parts of the world?
I am taking a very deep breath before getting involved in this inyan because I am reminded of a well known rumour that the Chazon Ish said that he does not know if in this world we will ever understand the shitah of Rabeinu Tam about Bein Hashemashos!
It seems that it is based on the Sages of Yisrael in Pesachim 94b; see Gilyon Hashas there.
BeHatzlacha Rabah
Dovid Bloom
How is it possible that the GRA would interpret the gemaras differently than Rabbenu Tam, but yet follow Rabbenu Tam's shita in Vilna?
Is it possible to actual interpret Rabbi Yehuda in the gemara for 3/4 mil to apply to everywhere on earth, or is there some way to be sure he only meant in Eretz Yisroel?
Finally, why do people today still hold of "72 minutes" when in fact even Rabbenu Tam's shita does not mean 72 minutes davka everywhere, but as you pointed out, could be 50 minutes, or otherwise, especially when there are differences as to when the "three stars" are visible even according to Rabbenu Tam?
Thanks,
David G
1) It is not so simple to issue Halachic decisions. The Beis Yosef (Yoreh Deah 242, the chapter in Shulchan Aruch which deals with issuing Halachic rulings, DH veha'Rif) cites the Talmud Yerushalmi in the second chapter of Maseches Nidah, which says that Rebbi Chanina used to live in Tzafrin (Tzipori, in the north of Eretz Yisrael). He said that he never made a Halachic ruling unless he had heard it from his teacher as theoretical Halachah as many times as the number of hairs on his head, and three times as practical Halachah. The Beis Yosef writes that we learn from this one should be careful not to make a Halachic ruling unless it is very clear to him. Otherwise, he should gather together all of the Sages of the town to receive their agreement.
Therefore, we may say that the Gra did not want to contradict the opinion of Rabeinu Tam, which had been prevalent among the Jewish people for hundreds of years.
2) I have not yet found any Mefarshim who write that Rebbi Yehudah's opinion applies everywhere on earth. The Gra and the Mishnah Berurah (OC 261:2, DH she'Hu) certainly write that the time spans of the Gemara apply only on the Eretz Yisrael-Bavel latitude.
3) The aforementioned Mishnah Berurah also writes that if there is no longer any redness in the western side of the sky at night, then this is sufficient even according to Rabeinu Tam. We learn from this that if there is still a red color at the western side, it is not yet considered night. Where I live, in Yerushalayim, I have noticed that it is only around 50 minutes after sunset that one can say that the west side of the sky is totally black. If, even in Eretz Yisrael one has to wait 50 minutes to reach this stage, then I can conceive how in more northern countries it might take around 72 minutes for the sky to get so black.
David, thank you once again for all of your wonderful questions.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom