Don't the Rabbanan say the Torah was given on day 50? They say the Exodus was Friday and Mattan Torah was Shabbos.
You wrote that according to the Rabanan there were 51 days between Pesach and Shavuos. Once the Gemara (88a) brings down the Seder Olam, it backs off from its answer that Iyar had 30 days since Pesach was on a Friday (not a Thursday) and Sivan 6 was a Shabbos. Thus, according to the Rabanan, they were 50 days apart but according to R. Yosi (who says Pesach was a Thursday), they were 51 days apart. What you have above is wrong.
bernard dickman, brooklyn, new york
Thank you. We mentioned the calculation of the Seder Olam in answer (a) (although we did not point out that the Gemara itself quotes it too). Regarding whether the Rabanan "backed off," I disagree. The Gemara says that the Rabanan can hold both like the Beraisa (left Egypt Thursday) and like the Seder Olam (left on Friday).
Be'Virchas Kol Tuv,
Eliezer Chrysler
On an additional point, does Acherim hold that the Torah was given on Shabbos since he holds they went out on Wednesday?
The Gemara specifically writes that, according to Acherim, Rosh Chodesh Sivan of that year fell on Shabbos. Consequently, it seems to me, that if Acherim concurs with R. Yossi, then the Torah was given on Friday; whereas if he concurs with the Rabbanan, then it was given on Thursday.
Granted, the Gemara does say that everyone agrees that the Torah was given on Shabbos, but 'everyone' might well refer to R. Yossi and the Chachamim in the Beraisa that the Sugya is currently discussing. In any event, the Ya'avatz points out that in the opinion of R. Elazar ben Azaryah (cited in Pirkei de'R. Eliezer) the Torah was given on Friday, so we see that 'everyone' is 'La'av Davka'. I don't know why the Ya'avatz does not mention Acherim as well, but it does seem abundantly clear that the Torah was not given on Shabbos according to him either, as I explained.
Be'Virchas Kol Tuv.
Eliezer Chrysler.
Rabbi Chrysler,
Thank you for your response. Let me point out that the Gemara on Shabbos 86a says that according to Rabbi Elazar ben Azariah, they separated on Thursday implying Mattan Torah on Shabbos as Rashi says. Thus, the Bavli seems to disagree with the Pirkei de'R. Eliezer (and the Mechilta 16:1). The problem to me is that once we have a Tanna disagreeing with Rava's drasha that the Torah was given on Shabbos, then how does Rava know that the Rabbonim or R. Yosi agree with him?
One further question. Clearly they didn't bring the omer in the desert but did they celebrate Shevous in the desert?
Dr. Bernard Dickman
I merely quoted the Ya'avetz, who cited R. Elazar ben Azaryah in Pirkei de'R. Eliezer, chap. 46. I looked there but found nothing. I thought that perhaps the Gemara that you quoted on 86a (which has not yet cited Rava) is speaking, not about the day of the week, but about the day after Moshe began ascending Har Sinai, so that the fifth day on which they made Perishah, could have been on Wednesday, but you correctly pointed out, Rashi does not learn like that.
Regarding your problem as to now that we have a Tana disagreeing with Rava's Derashah ... , we have to remember that Rava learns it from a Gezeirah Shavah, which he must have received from his Rabbis. What's more, it is possible that he was handed over the Gezeirah Shavah specifically in connection with the Machlokes between Rebbi Yosi and the Rabbanan.
We also find that once Rava had a firm Derashah in his hand, he was not amiss to querying Tana'im who seemed to ignore it (see for example Makos 17b). So he applied the Gezeirah Shavah to explain the Machlokes the way he does. And if Acherim does not agree with it, that's Acherim's problem so to speak. And he can fend for himself.
And as for your final question, if we keep Shavuos nowadays, even though there is no Omer, why should they not have done the same in the Desert?
Here are two sources which prove that they did.
1. Rabeinu Bachye in Parshas Emor comments that the Torah inserts the phrase "Chukas Olam le'Doroseichem be'Chol Moshvoseichem" on Shavuos, to teach us that although the Torah links the Din of Chadash and the Yom Tov of Shavuos with the Omer and with the Shtei ha'Lechem, the fact is that even nowadays, when we have neither of these two Mitzvos Shavuos nevertheless applies. And what's more, he adds, the same applies to the other Yamim Tovim, which take effect even if the Mitzvos that are peculiar to them (Matzah, Sukah, Lulav ... ) are not available.
2. The Gemara in Menachos 45b, after proving that the Musaf Korbanos and the Korbanos that accompanied the Shtei ha'Lechem are not one and the same, concludes that they brought the former in the desert, but not the latter.
Be'Virchas Kol Tuv,
Eliezer Chrysler
1) However, I don't believe that he says they did it (Shavuos) in the desert.
2) On a quick reading, it seems to be a machlokes between R. Akiva and R. Shimon.
Thank you for all your help.
Dr. Bernard Dickman
1) What do you mean you don't believe that the Gemara says it?. The Gemara specifically states that they brought the Korbanos Musaf in the desert, but not the Korbanos that accompanied the Shtei ha'Lechem.
2) You write that at a quick glance it seems to be a Machlokes R. Akiva and R. Shimon. I don't know exactly what you are referring to, but had you looked more carefully, you would have noticed that the Shitah Mekubetzes erases 'R. Akiva Omer' from the text, in which case it is the continuation of R. Tarfon's statement (a statement with which nobody argues)!
Nor do I understand why you reject the proof from R. Bachye, according to whom the Yom Tov of Shavuos is independent of the Omer and the Shtei ha'Lechem, just as the Yamim Tovim of Pesach and Sukos are independent of the respective Mitzvos and Korbanos with which they are connected.
In any event, we Pasken that the first day of Yom Tov of Shavuos is min ha'Torah, even though the Shtei ha'Lechem are not brought nowadays and Sefiras ha'Omer is only mid'Rabanan.
be'Virchas Kol Tuv
Eliezer Chrysler
P.S. I ought to add that R. Shimon ben Nannes (in the Mishnah) does indeed argue with R. Tarfon's statement, but only inasmuch as in his opinion, they brought the lambs mentioned in Vayikra (i.e. that accompanied the Shtei ha'Lechem) in the Desert, even though they did not bring the actual Shtei ha'Lechem.