Greetings. I don't understand the conclusion in Kiddushin 76a stating that the Kusim are not proficient in kiddushin and gerushin as a reason to reject them. After all, even if they were baki, the Samaritans would not have been accepted even though they rejected the oral law and even all of Nach. So what difference does it make whether they were baki or not?
Even with regard to Maseches Kusim which states that they will be accepted when they accept Yerushalayim, this leaves out the other elements which are of equal importance. Similarly in both cases, especially in Kiddushin, we don't see a statement that they are rejected because they don't even accept the correct version of the Torah itself!
Thanks,
David Goldman
David, it is very good to hear from you again!
Tosfos Gitin 25a DH Halokeach writes that the Kusim abandoned idol worship more than the other nations and believed in the written Torah.
In the time of the second Temple they did not worship their Gods in the same way that they did in the time of the first Beis Hamikdash.
KOL TUV
Dovid Bloom
Thank you!
But the point is still that they rejected the oral law which must be as important as kiddushin and gittin! Plus even if they were "baki" in kiddushin and gittin, they were still rejecting the other things, INCLUDING the correct version of the Torah. So why would the gemara be specifically concerned about their marriages when these other elements were of equal importance?!
1) The Rambam, in his commentary on the Mishnah at the end of the chapter 8 of Maseches Berachos, writes about the Kusim. They are the people that Sancheriv brought from Kusa and settled in the cities of Shomron. They feared Hash-m and also worshipped their own gods (Melachim II 17:33) but throughout the course of a long time, they learned the Torah and accepted its simple meaning. The Gemara in Kidushin (76a) states that they were particular to keep the Mitzvos which they adopted and paid great attention to them. It was well-known that they believed in the Torah and believed in one G-d and did not worship idols. It was only later that it was discovered that they were worshipping the form of a dove on Har Gerizim.
2) Tosfos (Bava Kama 38b, DH Geirei) also writes that even though they worshipped idols in the beginning, later on they underwent a full conversion to Judaism.
3) The Chazon Ish (Yoreh Deah 2:18, DH v'Ikar) writes that if somebody believes in the written Torah but does not believe in the words of Chazal, he is not considered a Mumar for the entire Torah. He is considered a Mumar for one Mitzvah, namely, the Mitzvah of believing in the words of Chazal, and he is still considered to be Jewish.
4) I would suggest that it is similar to someone who is always stealing, or cheating in business, or always speaking Lashon ha'Ra. This is certainly disgusting, but he is still considered Jewish because he has thrown off the yoke of only one Mitzvah.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
If they originally followed the Torah without the oral law, when did they stop accepting the oral law?
According to the Chazon Ish they were effectively in the same position as the Karaites, who rejected the oral law and were excluded from Klal Yisroel, so what was the difference?
Then there were the Zionists, many of whom rejected the entire Torah......and they weren't excluded either...