More Discussions for this daf
1. Leviathan 2. Contradiction in Rashba? 3. The Livyason
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BAVA BASRA 75

1. sholom vogel asks:

the gemorah speaks about Hash-m killing the levyoson for the tzadikim le'osid lavo, and it quotes a posuk. Then the gemorah says- "ve'ain chaver ela talmid chochom, shenemar- hayosheves beganim chaveirim makshivim lekolech...."

I checked up the rashi of that posuk and all meforshim, and seemingly in that posuk, the word "chaveirim" is referring to angels, not talmidei chachomim. Is there a meforesh that learns like the gemorah? and why does it quote the one place where nobody else learns it that way, and not anywhere else?

sholom vogel, chicago il

2. The Kollel replies:

Talmidei Chachamim are called angels. The Gemara says this in Kidushin 72a. Rebbi there asked Levi to show him what the Talmidei Chachamim in Bavel are likem and Levi replied that they are similar to Mal'achei ha'Shares. Rashi explains that this is because they wear white garments and are wrapped up like angels. He cites the Gemara in Shabbos 25b which relates that before Shabbos, Rabbi Yehudah would don white garments and have the appearance of a Mal'ach. The Gemara in Nedarim 20b also says, "Who are the ministering angels? The Sages," because they are outstanding like the Mal'achim.

In a Sefer by Rebbi Tzadok ha'Kohen of Lublin, by the name of "Sichas Mal'achei ha'Shares" ("the conversation of the ministering angels"), Rebbi Tzadok (page 6) explains why the Talmidei Chachamim are called "Metzuyanim" ("outstanding"). This is because the Gemara in Berachos 8a says that Hash-m loves the "gates which are outstanding in Halachah," i.e. the Beis ha'Midrash. Since the Talmid Chacham's whole life is lived in accordance with Halachah, this means that he is exactly the same as an angel.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom

3. The Kollel adds:

Here are additional comments on the simple Peshat aspect of this question:

1) The most simple meaning of the verse (Shir ha'Shirim 8:13) seems to be according to the way the Gemara understood it, not like Rashi. See the Targum on the verse who writes: "You sit in the Beis ha'Midrash with the members of the Sanhedrin and the rest of the People listening to the voice of the Rosh Yeshiva."

This suggests that the Chaverim are the members of the Sanhedrin, the Talmidei Chachamim. There is no mention in the Targum of angels.

2) The Seforno on this verse writes: "Let me hear the voice of the Chaverim in the study houses. They listen to your voice when you supply them with whatever they lack, in order that they should be strong, and you should gain merit with them in the study of Hash-m's Torah."

Again, we see that the Seforno understands that Chaverim refers to the Talmidei Chachamim who need to be supported in order that they can study Torah.

3) In addition, it should be pointed out that Chaverim is a word used frequently by Chazal to refer to Talmidei Chachamim, while possibly the verse that the Gemara cites here is the only source from Tanach in which this is what Chaverim means. The Mishnah in Maseches Demai (2:3) discusses a person who accepts upon himself to behave as a "Chaver" (to practice more stringent levels with regard to what he eats, etc.). The Rambam, in his commentary on the Mishnah (cited by Maharsha here), writes that a Chaver is a Talmid Chacham, and he is so called because his "friendship" is trustworthy since it is for the sake of Heaven.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom