More Discussions for this daf
1. An argument with God 2. Mili d'Alma? 3. Machlokes R. Eliezer and The Rabanan
4. Die Rather than embarass someone 5. A husband who follows his wife's advice 6. ąéōåź ąå īåēģōś äłéčä
ļ»æ DAF DISCUSSIONS - BAVA METZIA 59
1. R Karaguilla asks:

Shalom u Bracha

When the Gmara says that is better for the person to die than to embarass someone, the proove from Tamar is difficult, because it will mean that she will die not to embarass Yehuda that already did the "Avera" with her.

Hard to imagine that the Ratzon Hash-m is that a person should die not embarass for example a thief....

Is this the Halacha- that if we see a person that killed or stole someone we can't testify that he did wrong?

Is the Terutz that she also committed the "avera"....?

Tks for the attention.

2. The Kollel replies:

Shalom,

There seems to be a Machlokes Rishonim about whether, when the Gemara says "No'ach Lo l'Adam," this means me'Ikar ha'Din, or is it a Midas Chasidus. The Tosfos there seems to hold that this is a Chiyuv, as does Rabeinu Yonah in Sha'arei Teshuvah (3:137). On the other hand, the Me'iri says that this is a Midas Chassidus. It is very difficult to understand the first opinion according to regular Halachah standards, since this means that someone embarrassing his friend can be considered a Rodef and it should be permitted to kill him or at least wound him. I have heard in the past some who try to somehow explain the Tosfos and Rabeinu Yonah more like the Me'iri, although it does not seem to be what they are saying. The Rashbatz (Avos 3:11) understands Tosfos to be saying that embarrassing someone is included in Yehareg v'Al Ya'avor.

As for your great question regarding thieves and murderers, we must say that Halbanas Panim is an Isur, but basic justice within the community is a higher interest. Obviously, we cannot say that we cannot prosecute a criminal in Beis Din just because he will be embarrassed. Apart from the fact that it does not make sense, there are of course countless sources in the Torah and Talmud that this is not true. It must be said that the Isur of Halbanas Panim is indeed very severe, but only when there is no justification to do so. If there is an interest in bringing justice, since the prohibition is based on Avodas ha'Midos it is not considered a bad Midah, when there is no choice, since Midos are usually not clear cut situations.

I need to think more about how to define things precisely, but it is clear to me that this is the right approach.

Best Regards,

Aharon Steiner