When does the juice become wine?. Surely, wine is juice which has fermented - but there's no mention of the fermentation process. We have a vat with juice in it, a pipe and a bor; where does it ferment.?
- because it must ferment! since juice alone, unless in a fridge has a shelf-life measured in days. What gets into the barrels must be wine. Does the scum come as a result of fermentation? And what measures are taken to ensure that the juice is not attacked by a fly to become (useless) vinegar.
menahem lester, Maale Michmas, Binyamin
I am going to address this question based more on the Halachot for grape juice and wine as far as Kidush is concerned; rather than in relation to the Halachot of Yayin Nesech, as discussed here in the sugya.
1) The Gemara Bava Basra, top 97b, cites Rava who said that one can squeeze a bunch of grapes and say Kidush on the juice obtained immediately. This is termed "Yayin miGito"; "wine from its vat". in other words wine which is totally new and has not been left to ferment at all.
2) We learn from this that even the freshest grape juice is considered as wine according to the Halachah, and one makes the Berachah of "Borei Pri Hagefen" on it.
However the Mishneh Berurah 272:5 cites authorities that even though one fulfils the Mitzvah of Kidush with such grape juice, nevertheless the choicest way of doing the Mitzvah is to use old wine. The definition of old wine is that 40 days have passed since its squeezing. The source for the idea of 40 days seems to be from the Mishnah Masechet Eduyot 6:1 which teaches that one can only bring wine on the Mizbeach in the Beit Hamikdash if it is 40 days old.
So even though grape juice is considered as wine by the Halachah as soon as it has been pressed out, it is only considered as old wine, which is of a better quality, when it is 40 days old.
3) The Gemara Avoda Zara above, top 30b, does actually refer to the fermentation process. The Gemara states that the "Tesisah" (bubbling) process takes 3 days. Rashi (DH Yayin Toses) writes that it is termed Tesisah until it has fermented ("machmitz") and is considered as Yayin.
KOL TUV
Dovid Bloom
I will now try to answer these questions from sources in our sugya.
1) Rashi 55b DH She-Hitchil writes that the Gat is made on a slope and when the wine is drawn from the top of the Gat and reaches the bottom of the slope, it is now called "wine". I suggest that this does not contradict Rashi 30b DH Yayin that we saw in the previous reply, who seems to say that it is only considered as wine after the 3 days of tesisah have finished. The reason that there is no contradiction is because the 2 sugyot are discussing 2 different areas of Halacha. The sugya on 30b is discussing whether we need to be concerned that a snake put its poison into the wine. During the 3 days of the bubbling a snake does not drink from the juice. It is only considered wine for this purpose after 3 days of fermenting have finished. In contrast, our sugya discusses when it is considered wine that becomes forbidden if a nochri touches it. This happens earlier. If it has reached the bottom of the slope of the Gat, even though it has not yet entered the bor (which is lower than the Gat) it is already considered as wine. We learn from this that wine is prohibited if a Nochri touches it, even before fermenting (which takes place in the bor) has started.
This is why our sugya does not mention fermenting, beccause our sugya is discussing yayin nesech, which applies at an earlier stage in the manufacturing process.
2) We learn from the Mishna in Masechet Ma'asrot 1:7 that fermentation takes place inside the bor. The Mishnah states there that the "Gmar Ma'aseh"; the time when wine becomes liable for tithing; is "MiSheYakpeh". The Bartenura writes that this means when one removes the shells and the husks of the grapes which the wine sends up inside the bor (which is a later stage than the Gat) when it bubbles and ferments. One sees that fermenting happens in the bor.
Shavua Tov
Dovid Bloom
1) Now to the question about whether the scum comes as a result of fermentation.
The Gemara Avoda Zara 56a cites the Mishnah of "MiSheYakpeh" that I mentioned above in 2).
Rashi Bava Metzia 92b DH writes that this means when the husks float to the top at the mouth of the bor when the wine starts "bubbling"; i.e. fermenting.
The Rambam, in his commentary on the Mishnah Masechet Ma'asrot 1:7, gives an explanation that seems to be slightly different from Rashi (but in fact I think there may not be a big difference between the 2 explanations).
Rambam writes that "MiSheYakpeh" means when the wine sends up foam which is called "Ufya" by Chazal.
Rashi Avoda Zara top 70b DH Ufya writes that "Ufya" means the "Ascuma of wine". I assume that Ascuma is what we call scum.
Even though the Rambam does not mention explicitly fermenting, I think it is reasonable to assume that he agrees with Rashi that "MiSheYakpeh" is a phenomenon that happens as a result of the fermenting process.
If so, we have proved that scum comes as a result of fermentation.
Dovid Bloom
I will now try to answer these questions from sources in our sugya.
1) Rashi 55b DH She-Hitchil writes that the Gat is made on a slope and when the wine is drawn from the top of the Gat and reaches the bottom of the slope, it is now called "wine". I suggest that this does not contradict Rashi 30b DH Yayin that we saw in the previous reply, who seems to say that it is only considered as wine after the 3 days of tesisah have finished. The reason that there is no contradiction is because the 2 sugyot are discussing 2 different areas of Halacha. The sugya on 30b is discussing whether we need to be concerned that a snake put its poison into the wine. During the 3 days of the bubbling a snake does not drink from the juice. It is only considered wine for this purpose after 3 days of fermenting have finished. In contrast, our sugya discusses when it is considered wine that becomes forbidden if a nochri touches it. This happens earlier. If it has reached the bottom of the slope of the Gat, even though it has not yet entered the bor (which is lower than the Gat) it is already considered as wine. We learn from this that wine is prohibited if a Nochri touches it, even before fermenting (which takes place in the bor) has started.
This is why our sugya does not mention fermenting, beccause our sugya is discussing yayin nesech, which applies at an earlier stage in the manufacturing process.
2) We learn from the Mishna in Masechet Ma'asrot 1:7 that fermentation takes place inside the bor. The Mishnah states there that the "Gmar Ma'aseh"; the time when wine becomes liable for tithing; is "MiSheYakpeh". The Bartenura writes that this means when one removes the shells and the husks of the grapes which the wine sends up inside the bor (which is a later stage than the Gat) when it bubbles and ferments. One sees that fermenting happens in the bor.
Shavua Tov
Dovid Bloom
It should be pointed out that fermentation does continue after the wine is put in the barrels. We learn this from what Rabbi Akiva said here "MiSheYishleh b'Chaviot". Rashi Bava Metzia 92b DH MiSheYishleh writes that this refers to the stage after the wine has been placed in the barrels and it is fermenting. The bubbling rises and sediments form at the top of the wine.
KOL TUV
Dovid Bloom