More Discussions for this daf
1. The value of the Kohen Gadol's Begadim 2. Kohen wearing his own clothes for Avodas Yochid 3. Hillel's Mesiras Nefesh
4. Being held to Hillel's standard 5. Kohen Gadol Changing Clothes 6. Kohen Gadol Changing Clothes
7. Allignment of the Bull 8. פרוה אמגושא
DAF DISCUSSIONS - YOMA 35

Jeff S. Melamed, CPA asks:

Mishna in Yoma says that Kohen placed bull between the Mizbeach and Ulam. At first glance (as per Artscroll diagram IGNORING stairs), this seems fine, as there are 22 Amos between Mizbeach/Ulam.

The Gemora suggests that optimally the bull should be aligned East -West, but rejects this for a practical reason.

DIFFICULTY:

Mishna in Middos when explaining the 22 Amos between the Mizbeach and Ulam (including the stairs), states there were 12 stairs INCLUDING a "Roved" between each set of stairs, not leaving much room between the stairs and the Mizbeach, if any.

[There's a machlokes as to how many sets of stairs there were (Gra/Tiferes Yisrael: 4 sets, Bartenura: 3 sets), and how much floor space existed between the Mizbeach and stairs]

There appear to be 3 possibilities (omitting details of stairs dimensions) of how much floor space between the Mizbeach and stairs:

1. NO floor space between the Mizbeach-Stairs, as the stairs ran flush into the Mizbeach (doesn't sound logical, but it's brought down in an Artscroll Gemora diagram).

2. There was ONE Amah between the Mizbeach-Stairs, barely enuf room for a human to walk, etc. (Gra/Tiferes Yisrael, and brought by Kehati as basic pshat)

3. There were THREE Amos between Mizbeach-Stairs (shown in Artscroll Mishna diagram as Bartenura pshat ).

Even according to the last opinion, it does not appear to make sense to suggest that a bull should be aligned in an East-West direction between the Mizbeach and Ulam, as there was insufficient room to do so.

Don't know the size of the type of bull used in the Beis Hamikdash, but for reference purposes:

"The average Dairy Cow has an overall height of 62.0"-69.0" (1.6-1.8 m), withers height of 54.0"-60.0" (1.37-1.5 m), and body length of 92"-103" " (3 Amos should be max ~60")

DO YOU HAVE AN EXPLANATION FOR THE GEMORA'S SUGGESTION TO ALIGN THE BULL EAST-WEST?

PS - Rambam has a completely out-of-the-box explanation of the Mishna in Midos, such that the question is not relevant to his explanation

Jeff S. Melamed, CPA

The Kollel replies:

I can suggest an explanation based on the text in our Gemara above Yoma 16a (8 lines from the bottom of 16a) when it cites the Mishnah in Middos. The girsa of our Gemara in that Mishnah is "between the Ulam and the Mizbeach there were 22 amah, and there were 12 stairs there; each step was half an amah high and half an amah long".

According to this the length occupied by the steps would be 12 times 1/2 of an amah = 6 amot. If the length of the stairs were only 6 amot this would leave plenty of room between the Mizbeach and the Ulam for the cow to stand.

[ In the Gemara there is an asterisk which refers us to a comment which points out that the text of the Mishnah in Middos reads that the length of each step was 1 amah; not half an amah. This girsa must help explain the diagrams that we have in Artsrolls etc. We are also referred to the Kesef Mishnah on the Rambam, but if we look at the Rambam Hilchot Beit Habechirah 6:4; which is presumably the Rambam you referred to, Jeff; we see that the Rambam also writes that each step was only half an amah long. The Rambam is consistent with the text of our Gemara 16a, and according to this there is plenty of room for the cow].

KOL TUV

Dovid Bloom

Follow-up reply:

I think I have an answer, bs'd, which can work also according to the girsa in the Mishnah in Middos.

1) I am explaining according to the Bartenura in Middos chapter 3 Mishnah 6. He writes that according to the Tana Kama there, the length of the stairs from the first one until the Mizbeach, was 19 amos, so there were 3 spare amos of smooth floor between the Mizbeach and the beginning of the stairs; which gives us 22 amos between the Ulam and the Mizbeach. Bartenura then writes that according to Rabbi Yehuda the stairs started 2 amos away from the Mizbeach.

2) Now we go to Eruvin bottom 19a (last line) where the Gemara tells us that the head and the majority of the body of a cow take up 2 amos. If the majority of a cow takes up 2 amos then the entire cow can fit into 3 amos so we now understand according to the Tana Kama in Middos how there is enough room between the Ulam and the Mizbeach to fit in the cow. And even according to R' Yehudah no doubt if we made a kvetch we could get him in!

Yasher Koach

Dovid Bloom

Another idea:

Here is another suggestion to make it possible to understand how we have a little bit more room in which to fit the cow between the Mizbeach and the stairs. This is based on the fact that there is a difference between a "Par" and a "Parah". The Rambam Hilchot Maaseh Hakorbanot 1:14 writes that when it says "Par" in the Torah this means that it has to be 2 years old. However the Rambam writes at the very beginning of Hilchot Parah Adumah that the Mitzvah of Parah Adumah is that it should be 3 or 4 years old. The Mishneh leMelech there writes that the age of a Par is not the same as the age of the age of the Parah. A Par is from 2 up whilst a Parah is from 3 up.

According to this it may be possible that the Gemara Eruvin end 19a; that I cited in my previous reply; is referring specifically to a Parah, and it is a Parah for which we say that its head and majority take up 2 amos. A Par is younger and consequently smaller. The Mishnah Yoma end 35b is referring to a Par, not a Parah, so it is possible that its head and the majority of its body takes up less than 2 amos. This means that it is easier to stand it up between the Mizbeach and the stairs.

Dovid Bloom