Dear Kollel Rabbi,
The Gemara in Kesubos 33A asks, "How then does Rabbi Ula derive that one who violates a naarah pays not only the kenas but is also subject to compensatory damages?" For Rabbi Ula knows it from that derivation of Rava who learns it from the verse that states "And the man who lay with her shall give the father of the naarah fifty shekels." The statement "And the man who lay with her" is superfluous and comes to teach that it is the benefit he enjoyed in laying with her.
Now Rabbi Yochanan derived this compensatory rule from the statement Tachas asher enah, which Rabbi Ula uses as a gezeirah shavah to learn money overrides malkus. How then does Rabbi Yochanna use the verse "And the man who lay with her"? For this is extra to teach something which Ula answers. The gemara does not answer for Rabbi Yochannan.
Can you find any authoritative sources which answer this question? Again, thank you in advance, and your research is greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Mike, Denver CO
No, I did not find an authoritative source that answers this question.
I will merely add as a learning tip that while the Gemara will sometimes counter, "What does he derive from this Pasuk?" it will often ignore the question entirely. When it ignores the question, it is not usually something the main commentaries discuss, unless there are other Gemaras that make it an issue.
All the best,
Yaakov Montrose
Thank you Rabbi Montrose,
Does this mean that Rabbi Yochanan can not follow his reasoning, and that this is a refutation by Rabbi Ula, or that the verse is used somewhere in the Talmud by Rabbi Yochanan but it is not referenced in other works that catalog such references, or that how Rabbi Yochanan uses this verse is not recorded? Again thank you in helping me along in my study of Talmud. I am greatly appreciative.
Mike
This means that we have no record of how Rebbi Yochanan uses this verse, although there is a possibility that it is mentioned somewhere in the Talmud or in other sources.
All the best,
Yaakov Montrose