32a
The gemoro says that Acc to ulla, this braisa in makkos that says that with a sister you get malkus, applies only when there's no money to pay, e.g. a shoteh who has no boshes or pegam. In that case you get malkus for sister cos there's no momon.
If we are talking about a shoteh who has no pegam, then you would be chayav malkus even she not your sister, because the gemoro says later on 23a top that if you don't have any chiyuv tashlumin for chovel, then you get malkus. Meaning that a shoteh who has no pegam I.e. less than a prutah worth, should get malkus for chavoloh, even if she is not your sister?!
Avrumi Hersh, London england
Dear Avrumi,
Since there is an Aveirah to hit (Chovel) someone, if the Mamon is less than a Perutah he gets Malkus. But living with a Shotah there is no act of embarrassing at all, there is no Pegam at all, etc., so there is no Aveirah of Chabalah and therefore there is no Malkus.
All the best,
Reuven Weiner
If this is not an act of chavolo at all, then it would be permissable to be meanes or mefateh any shoteh beula LECHATCHILA without any consequences. (As long as there is no tzaar)
I find it very hard to believe that this is not called chovel, even if there is no prutah of tashlumin. It is still a MAASEH of chovel.
There is no doubt that the Torah prohibits such behavior with a girl even when there is no Chavalah. This is true whether it is by force or seduction.
Reuven Weiner
But why doubt it be ossur, UNLESS it was a sin of chavolo?
Isn't thus proof that it IS considered a chavolo, only, a miniscule chavolo, I.e. less than a prutah.
Great point. I think you are correct. As Rebbi Yochanan says, Makos are indeed given as a punishment to someone who is Chovel if there is no monetary value to pay (Kesuvos 32b, Sanhedrin 85a, Makos 9a). If so, as you correctly observed, the question arises: Why does the Mishnah in Makos speak specifically about the sister, and not other Isurim, such as an ordinary case of Shoteh?
Rashi and Tosfos there (Makos 13a) explain the reason the Tana chose to discuss Chayavei Kerisus and not any ordinary Lav is in order to teach us a Chidush, namely, that even though there is a Chiyuv Kares, still there is a Chiyuv Makos as well. For Chayavei Lavin, it is Pashut that they warrant a Chiyuv Makos.
I hope this helps!
Warm regards,
Yishai Rasowsky