More Discussions for this daf
1. Redeem a first born; remove seven heads 2. letters of the Torah 3. A few questions
4. Serving one's parents 5. Letters, words, and verses in the Torah 6. Talmud Bavli and learning Tanach
7. The Middle of Tehilim 8. Pidyon Ha'Ben 9. Zevulun ben Dan
10. 600,000 Letters in the Torah 11. מאי כל מצות האב על הבן אילימא כל מצותא דמיחייב אבא למיעבד לבריה נשים חייבות 12. Letra Central da Torah - Central Letter of Torah
13. Shmuel regarding Chinuch 14. Obligation to teach child to swim 15. Number of verses in the Torah
16. Kol Mizwot ha'Av Al ha'Ben - Shuv? 17. Lefichach 18. Insights Source
19. Vav of Gachon 20. Vav of Gachon 21. כל מצוות האב על הבן
22. לפיכך
DAF DISCUSSIONS - KIDUSHIN 30

Mechael asked:

1. According to some of the explanations given on your Insights page, the Vav of Gachon should still not be 5,000 letters away from being the middle of the Torah. Also, the number of verses still seems to be off (given the apparent Pshat of the Gemarra). Also, apparently according to the Chasam Sofer (tshuvos to Orach Chayim, siman 52), because of some of these problems, a sofer does not make a bracha while writing a sefer torah.

2. Rambam's Principle #8 states we have the same (written & oral) Torah that was given to Moshe Rabeinu. However as your Insights Page mentions, there are/have been SOME variations among Sefer Torahs (e.g., Yemenite, etc.) According to the Yerushalmi, Taanit 4:2, Sefer Torahs were found, with some discrepancies, and they used the rule of Majority (2 out of 3) to determine what to use going forward. Given this, and other discrepancies, can we say for certain that Rambam's Principle #8 is accurate? (This principle of the Rambam is often quoted to Baalei Teshuvot; perhaps this practice should be amended.)

Below is a list of online references I found on the topic:

1. http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/StatSci/anon_middle.pdf (Ramah, Shagas Aryeh, etc.)

2. http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_pamphlet9.html

3. http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v6/mj_v6i23.html#CEX (mentions Chasam Sofer, Pnei Yehoshua, R. Hai Gaon)

4. http://ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v34/mj_v34i40.html#CMM (# of verses in the Torah-- off??

5. http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/opinions/cohen_codes_1.html (Ramah, etc.,)

6. http://www.torah-code.org/controversy/THE_ACCURACY_OF_OUR_WRITTEN_TORAH.pdf (Yerushalmi Taanit 4:2 -- variant texts found, majority 2/3 used for determination)

7. http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%205%20Epstein.pdf (changes in S.Torah, Ktav, Rollers, etc,)

8. http://www.talkreason.org/articles/list.cfm#top (lots of variant texts/spellings)

9. http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n479.shtml#14 (references as listed by A. Kaplan)

10. http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/codes/StatSci/middle_english.pdf (R. Tam; Ramah & R. Yom Tov Lippman, on no good mesorahs.

11. http://tblong.blogspot.com/2005_12_01_archive.html (Talmudic quotations of Torah not consistent with our Sefer Torahs; Radak on Kri/Ktiv)

All the best regards from Galus and Thank you for Your Time!!!!

Mechael , Los Angeles, USA

The Kollel replies:

With regard to the list of sources, in our Yosef Da'as, we referenced the following sources (aside from what was mentioned in the Insights):

Teshuvos ha'Ge'onim Harkabi #3

Hamikra veha'Mesorah (Rav Reuven Margoliyus) #4, #10

Iyunim b'Divrei Chazal uvil'Shonam (Erentroy) pp. 132-141

Tiferes Shmuel on the Maharsha here

Ya'avetz Megilah 29

Emes l'Yakov here

Megadim Chadashim Berachos 14b