More Discussions for this daf
1. Shechinah in Bavel 2. Gemara seemingly out of place 3. Women tearing Keri'ah at the Makom ha'Mikdash, Tearing Keri'ah on Chol ha'Mo'ed
4. Chizkiyah tore upon hearing the messengers story 5. Mourning for a Suicide Victim
DAF DISCUSSIONS - MOED KATAN 26

M. Abeles asks:

I have a question related to something in a true story I've written up. The story has two girls travelling to America together in steerage in 1908. At the time, women in steerage were not safe from unwelcome advances from sailors and other male passengers. In the story, she attracts the unwelcome attention of a sailor, but his evil designs are thwarted by the presence of her travelling companion and their friends. The sailor maligns her to an immigration official, so she's stopped on Ellis Island as an immoral woman, and slated for departure on the ship that brought her (and yes, according to my research, these things happened...).She was extremely unnerved by his attention throughout the trip, and now the fear of being sent back home alone branded an immoral woman and afraid that without the protection of her friend she will indeed end up as such, she commits suicide.

So, now the question: she was travelling to America to her brother and a fiance. Would she have received a proper Jewish burial given the circumstances, or would there have been repercussions: Would there have been hespeidim, and if so would she have been commended for preferring death to immorality, or not? What about the shiva Would there have been a regular shiva Of course since they weren't married I assume the chosson wouldn't have to do anything, but there's her brother there in New York... The chosson is an erlicher yiddishe person, unchanged by his move to the States, the brother, unfortunately, couldn't make the same claim (although they started out as chevrusas in yeshiva)....

Thanks,

Mirel Abeles

M. Abeles, Jerusalem, Israel

The Kollel replies:

Obviously, these kinds of questions are difficult, especially if we are speaking about a true story. I do not feel comfortable to judge a person in such a difficult situation, in different times and circumstances.

We find, on one hand, that Shaul ha'Melech commited suicide so he should not fall into the hands of his enemies, and the Midrash in Bereshis Rabah learns from a verse that it was permitted for Shaul to do so. There are a few ways to understand this.

a) Some Ge'onim and Rishonim say that it is permitted to commit suicide in a case of fear of torture. According to this Shitah, it does not matter if this person will be tortured or killed by his enemies, and any kind of fear from the enemy permits committing suicide.

b) Others distinguish between enemies who will kill the person, which does not permit suicide. But if a person fears that he will undergo drawn out torture, it is justified to commit suicide.

c) A third opinion, more relevant to our question, is that in a case that a person is afraid he will commit a sin, it is permitted to commit suicide. The Gemara brings a story from the time of the destruction of the second Beis ha'Mikdash of a group of captive Jewish boys and girls who knew they were being shipped to Rome for immoral purposes, and the whole group committed suicide together and jumped into the sea. We find other cases where Jews committed suicide when they realized that Nochrim would force them to do severe sins in the short future. For example, one of the Kinos we recite on Tish'ah b'Av discusses the terrible massacres in the first century in Wormes, Mainz, and Speyer, and it mentions the mass suicide that Jews committed before the barbarians showed up. This story is mentioned obviously to emphasize the tragedy, but it seems to me that it is not mentioned in a judgmental manner at all.

Your story certainly fits the third opinion (C) above, but it certainly makes sense that mental torture can also fall into category A or B.

There are many references in the Halachah regarding suicide under extreme mental distress, which might also be relevant to your story.

Kol tuv,

Aharon Steiner

Mirel Abeles asks:

Thank you so much for your thorough response! But to clarify, the book is fiction, but all of the various elements which brought the woman to her desperate situation is based on research.

My last question was about hespeidim, if there were hespeidim (which I gather there would, if the act is condoned), would she be praised for her decision, or would it be played down The timing is 1908, if it makes a difference...

Kol tuv,

Mirel

The Kollel replies:

Hi Again,

As I wrote above, I tend to have a lenient approach in a case like this, where a girl or young woman is alone and in such an experience. I do not know if I were asked to say a Hesped I would specify the fact that she committed suicide. I think I would try to lighten up this person personality by talking about her virtues in a more general way, that would include her totality to being moral even if the cost was losing her life.

Best regards,

Aharon