Kollel-

(I hope this doesn't sound like a joke, its not)

(a) Regarding a caravan surrounded by camels, if we are talking about the amount
of space needed to go in and out, if the camels are lined up lengthwise (head
to tail), are we saying that the camel is doing the "sidestep" in measuring
the distance between two camels? Or would a space large enough for a camel to
walk through regularly be enough?

To put it in more scientific terms;

When dealing with chattels (articles of personal property - which are surely both movable and used as a temporary barrier (otherwise they wouldn't be chattels)) as opposed to land, buildings, and building materials, and you use a definition of 'going in and out' as a requirement, is it sufficient to block the item from passing from only one direction or is it necessary to block the item from fitting through whichever way its rotated?

(b) Also, why were bundles, reeds, and vegetable stalks mentioned in the first
part, but not in the second part?

Thanks,

Gedaliah

Kollel-

>>Gedalliah asked:

(a) Regarding a caravan surrounded by camels, if we are talking about the amount

of space needed to go in and out, if the camels are lined up lengthwise (head

to tail), are we saying that the camel is doing the "sidestep" in measuring

the distance between two camels? Or would a space large enough for a camel to

walk through regularly be enough?

(b) Also, why were bundles, reeds, and vegetable stalks mentioned in the first

part, but not in the second part?<<

>> The Kollel replied:

(a) ...When the Gemara says that space is left for the camels to be "Nichnas v'Yotzei," it does not mean the amount of space for camels to walk back and forth through the line. Rather, it means "elbow-room" once the camels are lined up. That is, the person who guides each camel into its position leaves a little space between each camel in order to facilitate moving the camels in and out of the line (like the space that is left between cars when parallel-parking).

(b) The second part of the Beraisa mentions only the first three of six objects that it had mentioned in the first part. The Tana of the Beraisa thereby gets the point across, without having to be drawn out and mention all six items.<<

a) Thank you for your answer. But I still don't have a clear picture of the MAXIMUM allowable distance between rectangular chattels (as opposed to a wall or building materials-if there is a difference) that are used as a temporary barrier (the example of the camels et al). If, for example, I am making a temporary barrier out of high couches that are 3 x 9 placed lengthwise, with a space of 4 between each couch, would that be allowed because 9 will not fit thru 4, or would it not be allowed because 3 will fit thru 4 (the couch can be rotated so it would fit between the space) (shenicnas vyotzee). Maybe it would be necessary to put a pole in the middle to prevent the couch from passing thru? Wasn't the point that in order to be allowed to carry, you could NOT have shenicnas vyotze of the object?

b) If he gets his point across with only three items in the second part, than what would be the purpose of mentioning the other three items in the first part to begin with? I don't think you could possibly say that these are the only 6 items a caravan can use, so unless your going to list every single item, only the relevant items to the issue would be listed? Don't we learn that every word is chosen carefully and there are no extraneous words? On reviewing it again I noticed a difference between the first three and the second three items. The first three items, camels, saddles, and cushions, are real permanent possessions, real chattels. The second three items, bundles, reeds, and vegetable stalks, are really consumables, food. So is it possible that the rule of 'between one ... and the next ... the space of a ...' ONLY applies to the first three and specifically not the second three? Would this support my first question of chattels having a different rule than real property?

Thanks,

Gedaliah