More Discussions for this daf
1. Human Ashes? 2. Har Ha'Moriah 3. Additions to Shemoneh Esrei
4. Efer Mikleh 5. Switch in the loshon 6. Who Davens for the Chazan?
7. Can the dead repay favors to the living? 8. Second Beraisa 9. Ninveh and Teshuvah
10. Davening in the town square 11. Is Height an influencing factor? Rashi DH "Adam Shel Tzurah" 12. Shofar on a Ta'anis
DAF DISCUSSIONS - TA'ANIS 16

ARI STERN asks:

Kvod Harav,

What is the difference between Efer and Efer Mikleh, what does Mikleh mean?, Tosfos Efer Mikleh, Atzamos Adam, can you eloborate? The Mesivta quotes the Yavetz, that Davar Zar Hu. Whose Atzamos etc...?

Yasher Koach.

Ari Stern

The Kollel replies:

1) Mikleh means burnt. This is written by Tosfos; "those ashes were from something burnt from human bones".

2) Rashi above 15a DH Efer Mikleh writes that when the word Efer is used on its own this means earth (Afar). When the words Efer Mikleh are used this means burnt ashes.

[ The word Mikleh has an origin in Chumash Vayikra 2:14 "Kalui in the fire"]

3) Several years ago I asked Rav Chaim Kanyevsky shlita about this Tosfos and he replied that it refers to the bones of a Nochri. This can provide an answer to the question of the Yaavetz as this may be not such a strange thing. This also answers the question of the Keren Orah on Tosfos 15b DH veNosnin.

A few years ago I wrote in pencil in the margin of my Gemara some other possible ways of answering the question of the Yaavetz.

1) Sefer Melachim 2:23:14 tells us some of the reforms that the righteous King Yoshiyahu carried out:-

"And he broke in pieces the pillars; and cut down the Asherim and filled their place with the bones of men".

The Radak writes that King Yoshiyahu removed the bones of idol worshippers from their graves, and put them in the place of the Asherim and pillars in order to disgrace them, and burnt the bones there.

It seems from the Radak that one is allowed to burn bones of idol worshippers, so there are sources whereby one could obtain bone ashes.

2) We also see this in Gemara Sanhedrin 82a where we learn that the skull of the wicked King Yehoyakim was found in the gates of Yerushalayim. The Gemara relates there that the skull of his wife was also found and in order not to cause too great a disgrace to the king, one of the neighbors ignited the oven and burned it.

3) See Magen Avraham 311:3 who writes that the Beis Yosef learns from the Rambam Hilchos Shabbos 26:21 that it is not bizayon for the corpse if it is burnt.

Other possible ways of understanding Tosfos:-

1) See Maseches Ahalos chapter 4 Mishnah 2 which discusses a box which contains tumah. Rabbi Yosi states that the house in which the box is situated is tahor because he can burn the tumah inside the box so it follows that the tumah has no connection to the house. R. Yosi's opinion suggests that there are sometimes circumstances in which remains may be burnt.

2) The above Mishnah is cited by the Gemara Chulin 125b and Tosfos there DH Yachol writes that it is not the normal way to burn an entire body. When R. Yosi says that one can burn it, he is not referring to an entire body. Again there is a suggestion that sometimes bones are burnt. See Igros Moshe Yoreh Deah 1:232 DH Aval who writes that it may be possible to learn from R. Yosi that one is allowed to burn part of a dead body.

3) See also Mishnah Nedarim 20a that if someone says "Hari Atzmi Korban" he can explain that he did not mean to make himself into a korban but rather "Atzmi" means "my bone". Rashi DH veChen writes that he can say "I merely made a neder on a bone that I have placed in my house in order to make neadrim on". This suggests that people soemtimes keep bones in their house (unless one says that it refers to an animal bone).

A freilicher Chanukah!

Dovid Bloom