More Discussions for this daf
1. The Bas Kol heard by Acher 2. Everyone Has Two Portions, One in Eden, and one in Gehennim 3. Acher
4. Tohu 5. Ben Abuya 6. Acher doing Teshuvah
7. Rebbi Meir as the Talmid of Acher 8. Zemer Yevani 9. Acher and Rebbi Meir
10. The source for Acher's heresy 11. Did Acher ever get to Gan Eden? 12. Bechirah
13. R. Yochanan & Acher
DAF DISCUSSIONS - CHAGIGAH 15

alex lebovits asked:

(a) R' Yochanan said regarding Acher "If I take him by the hand, who will take him away from me?!" And at the time of R' Yochanan's death he was eulogized with the words Afilu Shomer Hapesach Lo Omad Lefanecha . Rashi says that the words Shomer Hapesach refers to the gatekeeper of Gehinnom. R' Meyer's whole purpose into getting him into Gehinnom was that eventually Acher will leave Gehinnom and end up in Gan Eden. So if all R' Yochanan was able to do is to get him out of Gehinnom, he accomplished nothing at all; because that's how the whole thing started!

(b) And if R' Yochanan did get Acher into Gan Eden;- then let Rashi explain Shomer Hapesach as Shomer Gan Eden ; for obviously there is no way to get in there without being let out from Gehinnom!.

Kol Tuv

alex lebovits, toronto, canada

The Kollel replies:

(a) Mekubalim say the righteous pass through Gehinom after death, where they can sometimes "shlep" others out to accompany them to where there are headed, ie. Gan Eden.

Before Acher was sent to Gehinom by Rebbi Meir, even that kind of salvation wasn't possible (since he had no "Din").

(b) There was proof that Acher was pulled out of Gehinom since the smoke stopped rising from his grave. But the Maspid has no physical proof that Rebbi Yochanan got Acher past the Shomer Gan Eden.

Presumably, of course, he did succeed - if he wasn't sure he would succeed he would not have tried it, as you wrote.

Best wishes,

Mordecai Kornfeld

alex lebovits responded:

Dear Rabbi Kornfeld,

I would like to suggest the following for your consideration or criticism:

Acher really did get to 'Olam Habo' because that was what R' Yochanan wanted to achieve, as you mentioned.

But the reason Rashi doesn't mention that R' Yochanan got him past the 'Shomer Gan Eden' is because 'Olam Habo' in fact has no Shomer HaPesach! (perhaps because 'Kol Yisroel Yesh Lohem Chelek L'Olam Habo') .

Perhaps one could be 'medayek' this from the words of the Gem. that says Din only by Gehinom and simply says we cannot bring him into Olam Habo with no mention of Din; indicating that to go to 'Gehinnom' one needs judgement, but to go to Gan Eden on just has to be able to show up there.

Olam Habo might be similar to the 'Right of Return' to Israel that all Jews have today; no special visa is required, and no one is barred as long as he is Jewish.

Or perhaps leaving Gehinnom is similar to being freed from prison, and once past it's gates, all obligations have been fulfilled and you are in the free world.

Does any of the above have any validity or is it all mere conjecture?

Kol Tuv.

Alex Lebovits

The Kollel replies:

Alex,

(a) "Din" means punishment in this context, and is inherently connected to Gehinom, not Gan Eden.

(b) From Tamid 32b it sounds like Gan Eden has a locked gate and those who are not worthy are shunted. (See also Kesuvos 77b which discusses the walls that block the unworthy from entering Gan Eden.)

Be well,

Mordecai Kornfeld