More Discussions for this daf
1. Kidushin of a Giyores Ketanah 2. Macha'ah Bagrus 3. Gerim
4. Ger Katan 5. Gerus a Zechus or a Chov? 6. Macha'ah Bagrus
7. Besulim 8. רש״י ד״ה מן הנישואין 9. רש"י על דעת בית דין
10. הגדילו יכולים למחות 11. יהבי לה קנס / כתובה ואזלה וכלה בגיותה 12. מתני' הגדול שבא על הקטנה
13. ביאת קטן
DAF DISCUSSIONS - KESUVOS 11

Ben Greene asks:

We know when a Katan who is Misgayer grows up and is a Gadol he can be Mocheh and revert to being a Nochri...

There is a Machlokes about when this Gadlus is. If he's a Nochri, he's a Gadol when he gets Da'as which is between 7-8 according to the Chasam Sofer; but if we use yiddishe Cheshbonos he's a Gadol at 13.

So let's say he wants to accept it, and we say he's 7-8 and has Da'as as a Nochri and accepts it, well now he's a yid and is in the yiddeshe Cheshbonos which won't make him a Gadol for another few years so did he really do anything?

Also, if you answer like those Maan d'Amarim that say it's dependent on what he's choosing, i.e. if he is making a Macha'ah and becoming a Nochri he goes with 7-8 but if he's accepting and becoming a Jew it's 13, what if at 7-8 he makes Macha'ah and then when he's 12 years old, he changes his mind and wants to accept...he still has time in the Jewish Cheshbon and could accept Yahadus or is that rejection a complete act and he'd have to start the whole process over to be Misgayer?

Ben Greene, United States

The Kollel replies:

Ben, it is great to hear from you again! We hope you and your family are all doing well in these difficult times.

1) My initial reaction to this question is that the concept that a Nochri gets Da'as when he is 7-8 all depends on what issue we are discussing. Basically, what I want to say is that the decision to become Jewish is an extremely serious one and for this the Chasam Sofer will agree that at such an early age nobody can be considered sufficiently responsible to decide. I will try and provide some support for my argument.

2) I found that the Teshuvos Chasam Sofer (Yoreh Deah #184, DH u'Kvar) cites the Rosh in a Teshuvah who says that the age of 13 for Mitzvos is a Halachah given to Moshe on Sinai. But then he asks an apparent contradiction in the Rambam. In Hilchos Melachim 9:10, the Rambam writes that if a Nochri eats even the smallest amount of a limb from a live animal, he is liable. The concept of Shi'urim (that one is liable only for eating a k'Zayis, etc.) applies only to Yisrael.

3) The other Rambam is in Hilchos Melachim 10:2, where he writes that if a Nochri was forced by a tyrant to transgress one of the Mitzvos, he is allowed to succumb even if he was forced to worship idols. The Rambam continues and says that we never punish a Nochri who is a minor, or deaf and dumb, or lacking intelligence, because the Nochri is not commanded to do Mitzvos. The contradiction is that one sees now from the Rambam that there is such an idea of a Nochri being a minor, which seems to go against what we said that a Nochri is always liable if he is intelligent, because Shi'urim of ages, or amounts needed to be eaten, do not apply to Nochrim.

4) The Chasam Sofer answers that the age of 13 is a sort of leniency for Yisrael. Even the most brilliant Jewish genius does not get punished below the age of 13, due to the Halachah l'Moshe mi'Sinai. This Din does not apply for Bnei Noach. However, if a Nochri minor was persuaded or seduced to transgress a Mitzvah, we say that he, too, is not held responsible for his actions at such an early age.

5) We see that according to the Chasam Sofer, even though an intelligent Nochri child is expected to keep his Mitzvos, if he is cajoled into a sin he is not held responsible. My argument is that we see from this that there is a limit to the amount of maturity we expect from the minor. Therefore, it seems to me that a child of 7 or 8 is not yet sufficiently adult to change his life entirely and accept all 613 Mitzvos.

6) This has relevance to Pesach: One of the main aspects of Pesach is the education of the children to Jewish values and they start the evening by asking the Four Questions. We also learn about the four different kinds of children. The wise son has a lot of questions to ask and the other sons do not have so much understanding, so we have to help them out. At any rate, if even the smart son has a lot of thinking to do about Torah, we can certainly understand why a 7-year-old child cannot genuinely accept upon himself keeping the Mitzvos.

7) Here are more sources:

a) Tosfos, in Nazir 57b (DH v'Rav Ada, 10 lines from the end of the paragraph of Tosfos), writes that "a minor cannot make a Macha'ah." One might retort that this refers only to a Jewish minor, not a Nochri, but the words of Rav Yosef, here in Kesuvos, are, "When they grow up they can be Mocheh," which suggests that the whole concept of being Mocheh applies only to an adult, not to a minor, whether he is a Yisrael or a Nochri.

b) I found that the Minchas Chinuch (Mitzvah 2, section 23, DH v'Chen Nireh) does have a question about the minor Ger changing his mind later on. It is not actually the same as your scenario, Ben, but it is an interesting Halachah. He writes that the Beis Din did a proper Milah and immersion in the Mikvah for the minor, and then when he became 13 he was Mocheh. If afterwards he changes his mind and decides he wants to convert after all, it may be that he needs no further Milah or Mikvah because the original ones are effective for later on too. However, in the Minchas Chinuch's scenario, all the decisions of the Ger were taken once he became an adult.

c) I saw that the Ran on the Rif here (page 4a of the pages of the Rif, DH Garsinan) asks the following question. Since Rav Yosef said that when the Ger becomes adult he may be Mocheh, this implies that when he is a minor he cannot be Mocheh. If so, this makes it difficult to understand the Gemara which says that if she was an adult for one hour and was not Mocheh, she no longer may be Mocheh. How is it possible for the young person to be so precise and be Mocheh immediately when he becomes an adult? If he misses the protest by one second, it is too late and the conversion has already taken effect?

The Ran answers that when the minor is Mocheh, this does actually achieve something. If he protests when he is under 13, this does not actually close the door on him becoming a Ger, and if he changes his mind later he is still able to utilize the Gerus that the Beis Din applied for him. However, what the protest of his childhood does achieve is that if, when he becomes 13, he continues with this position, then his protest is effective. (It seems to me that the Ran means that if he was Mocheh when he was a minor, then if he does nothing when he becomes 13 this means that he does not become Jewish. It is only if he postiively changed his mind when he became 13 or before he became 13, and said that he has decided that he wants to convert, that the Gerus works.)

However, in your scenario, Ben, if he made a Macha'ah when he was 7-8 and then at 12 years old changed his mind and says he wants to accept it, the change of mind at 12 would cancel out the earlier Macha'ah and it would be as if he never protested. If he does not make a very quick protest at 13, he will automatically remain Jewish.

Wishing you a Pesach Kasher v'Same'ach,

Dovid Bloom