Thank you for your reply.
I looked over the daf again and I saw that the hagahos vi'tziunim there (5) brings a aruch who says on the drasha there of ayn naki kol shecane talmidei chachamim.
What is he saying? Sending a talmid chacham to milchama is abigger chiddush then sending a chassan as a chassan is muter by a milchamas mitzvah? What is his Kol shkane?
Thanks for all your help
kol tuv
Shalom!
I am not sure I understand your question well enough to address it confidently. I will try to explain the Gemara and I hope that helps. The Gemara says that Asa, the king of Yehudah, was punished because he drafted Talmidei Chachamim to work for the government. Basha, the king of Yisrael, tried to build a stratigic tower to fight Yehudah, and Asa called Ben Hadad, the king of Aram, to help him fight Basha, who then stopped the building of the tower. Asa brought men from Yehudah, including Talmidei Chachamim, to clear the planks and stones that Basha had brought for the construction of the tower, and to thereby cancel Basha's plan. The Gemara derives from the wording of the verse, "Naki," that Asa also took newly married grooms for this endeavor. The Mefarshim have difficulty with how this is evidence that he also took Talmidei Chachamim for the task. The comment you mentioned derives from the Sefer ha'Aruch who says that if he took newly-married men, then Kal va'Chomer he also took Talmidei Chachamim. The Maharsha says that we learn this from the verse, because it says "Kol Yehudah," where the word "Kol" ("all" of Yehudah) comes to include even Talmidei Chachamim.
In any case, we are not talking about recruitment for the army, but for the service of the king, for which, according to all opinions, newly-married grooms should not be recruited, and of course Talmidei Chachamim should be exempt.
Best Regards,
Aharon Steiner
It seems from that it has some kind of din of the army becaus the Maharsha says it was a milchamas reshoos and thats why he was punished for sending talmidei chachamim and its mashma from the Yerushalmi that it has a din of a milchamas mitzvah (not like the Maharsha). Either way I am asking what is the kol she'can of the aruch?
Shalom! I forgot to add what the Kol she'Ken in my last reply. Since there is an explicit verse for a newly-married groom, and the exemption of Talmidei Chachamim is a Din d'Rabanan, or at most a Din mi'Divrei Kabalah, if Asa recruited the first which is against a Din d'Oraisa, then Kol she'Ken that he recruited Talmidei Chachamim which is not a d'Oraisa.
I can see that even though this is not a formal war, but this activity is definitely around the war with Basha, the king of Israel, so it is possible to consider the matter as part of the issue of Milchemes Reshus or Mitzvah, according tho the Yerushalmi you are quoting. I would appreciate it if you could direct me to the Yerushalmi you are quoting, because it sounds like a great Chidush that a war between brothers, Yehudah and Yisrael, would be considered a Milchemes Mitzvah.
Best Regards,
Aharon Steiner
Shalom thanks for your reply
The yerushalmi is in Sotah at the end of the 8th perek halacha 10. I saw somewhere (I think it was in the mesivta on meseches Sotah 43a) that the Yerushalmi holds it was a melchamas mitzvah but the sefer didn't say why it was mashma that way. I think that it's mashma that way because the gemara was just previously talking about a milchamas mizvah of sar shi'ba al yisorel so it's mashma that this war between Asa and Basa was also a milchmas mitzvah. I might be getting some details wrong as I saw the gemara a while ago but that's what I remember. I saw somewhere else (maybe it was also in the mesivta on meseches Sota) that it was a melchamas mitzvah because Basa would have made the yidden be over ovoda zara. According to that it should come out that miclamas chanukah was also a milchamas mitzvah.
1.What is the mekor (derabonon or kabal) that Talmdie Chachamm are porter from milchama?
2. Lifi the aruch what would be the din of a Talmid chahma by a milchamas mitzvah? If a chasas goes to war by a milhamas mitzvah perhaps kol shi'kane a talmid chacham would go since his potur is only derabanon/divrei kabal and not deorisa
Let's separate the two questions. The first one is, was the war between Asa and Ba'asha a Milchemes Mitzvah? The second question is, even if the war was not a Milchemes Mitzvah, can we learn from the Kal v'Chomer of the Aruch that in any case a Chasan is recruited, we know that a Talmid Chacham is recruited too?
As you wrote, the Mesivta seems to say that the Yerushalmi says that it was a Milchemes Mitzvah. I would not say that this is written in the Yerushalmi, but I agree that there is a hint in the Yerushalmi in that direction. I will also add that it seems that the Yerushalmi does not agree with the Bavli regarding Asa's actions. The Bavli indeed criticizes Asa for his actions, but the Yerushalmi learns from Asa the criteria of a Milchemes Mitzvah, which means that there is no criticism of Asa in the way he behaved. I will add again that all of this is not explicitly stated in Yerushalmi. As we already mentioned, the Maharsha explicitly says that this war was not a Milchemes Mitzvah, but, again, this seems to be a Machlokes Bavli and Yerushalmi, as you mentioned.
The Keren Orah (end of Perek 8) concludes that we actually can learn from the story of Asa that a Talmid Chacham is recruited in a case of a Milchemes Mitzvah, but in the case of Asa, the war was not a Milchemes Mitzvah anymore, since Ba'asha already let go and was not fighting anymore. We see also in Rashi (Bamidbar 31:4) regarding Milchemes Midyan that Shevet Levi, who are the source for the exemption of Talmidei Chachamim from fighting in the battlefield, and the Gemara in Sotah 43a, say that even the Sanhedrin joined. On the other hand, we find in the Gemara in Nedarim 32a that Avraham was held accountable for recruiting Talmidei Chachamim in order to save Lot. Some say that saving Lot was not a Milchemes Mitzvah.
Another source that is cited is the Rambam, end of Hilchos Shemitah v'Yovel. He seems to say that Shevet Levi did not receive a part in Eretz Yisrael since they were also exempt from the war, which was a Milchemes Mitzvah of course. Some want to learn from here that Shevet Levi and anyone who would like to join their ranks are exempted from fighting at war, even a Milchemes Mitzvah. The sources to say this include the actions of Asa, the Yerushalmi, and the Gemara in the beginning of Bava Basra that says that Talmidei Chachamim do not need protection. The sources are not clear-cut and there are different opinions regarding this question, which clearly has some practical relevance.
Best regards,
Aharon Steiner
Thank you for your interesting reply. So when all the dust settles is it borur that the aruch agrees with the Keren Orah that a Talmid Chacham goes to a milchamas mitzvah?
Also, are there achronim who say befarish not like the Keren Orah and who hold a talmid chacham doesn't go to war even by a milchamas mitzvah?
Thanks for all your help understanding this sugya
Thank you for your great question. It made the Sugya clearer to me as well.
I would say that is reasonable to claim that the Aruch's opinion is like the Keren Orah.
Regarding the second question, as I wrote, those who hold that Talmidei Chachamim might be exempted from a Milchemes Mitzvah usually rely on the Rambam. The problem is that the Mishnah in the eighth Perek of Sotah says that even a Kohen Gadol is recruited to war. The Chidushei ha'Griz (the Brisker Rav) on Sotah 43a says that the Rambam means that Shevet Levi and Talmidei Chachamim are recruited only when they are needed. Rav Chayim Kanievsky zt'l, in his Sefer Derech Emunah, says that the Talmidei Chachamim are recruited only if they want to, but they cannot be forced to join the army. This question arose when the Israeli army was formally established at the time of the establishment of the modern State of Israel, and of course it sparked controversy. Rabbi Yechiel Michel Tukachinsky zt'l wrote an article at the time exempting Yeshiva students and Talmidei Chachamim from conscription. It was based mainly on the Gemara in Bava Basra 8a which says that, from a Halachic standpoint, Talmidei Chachamim do not need Shemirah. Rabbi Shlomo Yosef Zevin zt'l answered him sharply in his own article, saying that the exemption should not be based on this Gemara.
In any case, one should also add to the discussion the question of what exactly constitutes a Talmid Chacham. If the Gemara in Bava Basra is part of the discussion, it is recommended to see the Rishonim there such as the Yad Ramah, Rosh, and others, as well as the ruling of the Shulchan Aruch and Rema in Yoreh De'ah 283.
Best Regards,
Aharon Steiner
Thank you for your interesting reply. So when all the dust settles is it borur that the aruch agrees with the Keren Orah that a Talmid Chacham goes to a milchamas mitzvah?
Also, are there achronim who say befarish not like the Keren Orah and who hold a talmid chacham doesn't go to war even by a milchamas mitzvah?
Thanks for all your help understanding this sugya
Thank you for your great question. It made the Sugya clearer to me as well.
I would say that is reasonable to claim that the Aruch's opinion is like the Keren Orah.
Regarding the second question, as I wrote, those who hold that Talmidei Chachamim might be exempted from a Milchemes Mitzvah usually rely on the Rambam. The problem is that the Mishnah in the eighth Perek of Sotah says that even a Kohen Gadol is recruited to war. The Chidushei ha'Griz (the Brisker Rav) on Sotah 43a says that the Rambam means that Shevet Levi and Talmidei Chachamim are recruited only when they are needed. Rav Chayim Kanievsky zt'l, in his Sefer Derech Emunah, says that the Talmidei Chachamim are recruited only if they want to, but they cannot be forced to join the army. This question arose when the Israeli army was formally established at the time of the establishment of the modern State of Israel, and of course it sparked controversy. Rabbi Yechiel Michel Tukachinsky zt'l wrote an article at the time exempting Yeshiva students and Talmidei Chachamim from conscription. It was based mainly on the Gemara in Bava Basra 8a which says that, from a Halachic standpoint, Talmidei Chachamim do not need Shemirah. Rabbi Shlomo Yosef Zevin zt'l answered him sharply in his own article, saying that the exemption should not be based on this Gemara.
In any case, one should also add to the discussion the question of what exactly constitutes a Talmid Chacham. If the Gemara in Bava Basra is part of the discussion, it is recommended to see the Rishonim there such as the Yad Ramah, Rosh, and others, as well as the ruling of the Shulchan Aruch and Rema in Yoreh De'ah 283.
Best Regards,
Aharon Steiner
Thanks for all your help making the sugya much clearer.
Is there a way I can get access to the articles by Rav Tukachinsy and Rabbi Shlomo Yosef Zevin? Is it on otzar hachama? Either way if you know of any mara maramakomas of recent poskim who discuss the sugya and how it would apply in modern times I would appreciate it. I looked around a little but I couldn't find anyone who discusses it.
Kol tuv
הלכות מדינה, חלק ב׳, שער ד׳ פרק ג׳. רא״י וולדינברג. (יש באוצה״ח).
מצ״ב דעתו של הרב זווין, שיצא לאור בעילום שם בזמנו (׳אחד הרבנים׳) http://www.dafyomi.co.il/sotah/discuss/sota-010.q20a.pdf
, ומאמרו של הרי״מ טקוצינסקי
http://www.dafyomi.co.il/sotah/discuss/sota-010.q20b.pdf
.