Hello, when rabbi shimon ben gamliel says a kosher torah can be written in Greek does that mean translation (ie using Greek words) or simply transliteration (bereishit still pronounces the same way but with a beta instead of a bet etc).
Given the disaster associated with ptolemys forced translation of the septuagint, I'd assume he means only a transliteration is ok, but would love to know if any meforshim discuss.
Thank you!
1) The Torah states, "Elokim made Yefes beautiful, and he will dwell in the tents of Shem." The Midrash (Bereshis Rabah 36:8) cites Bar Kapara who said, "May the words of Torah be said in the language of Yefes inside the tents of Shem." We learn that the Torah was actually translated into the Greek language, not just transliterated.
2) The Gemara (9a) cites a Beraisa in which Rebbi Yehudah said that the Heter that Chazal gave for Greek was only because of the episode of Ptolemy. The Heter was given because of the physical danger that Klal Yisrael would have faced had it not been permitted to translate the Torah into Greek in the time of Ptolemy.
3) I found that the Teshuvos Chavos Ya'ir #109 cites the Rambam (Hilchos Tefilin 1:19) who writes:
"One may write Tefilin and Mezuzos only in Ashuris writing, and they permitted writing Sefarim specifically in Greek."
The Chavos Ya'ir writes that the simple reading of the words of the Rambam is that he is referring to the writing, not the language. So this means only transliteration, not translation.
The Chavos Yair remarks that what the Rambam writes seems strange, and he has questions on this way of learning, but he does seem to remain with the Peshat in the Rambam that he refers to writing, even though it is difficult to understand why.
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4) I also found that Rabeinu Chananel in Megilah 9b seems to be consistent with this way of learning the Rambam. He writes that what the Gemara states there, immediately before the Mishnah, "the beauty of Yefes," means that the choicest progeny of Yefes, which is the writing of Greece, shall be in the tent of Shem, who are the children of Yisrael. The words "writing of Greece" used by Rabeinu Chananel imply the writing, not the language.
5) However, Rashi in Megilah 9b, DH Yafyuso, writes that we are referring to the language of Greece. According to Rashi, it refers to translation, not transliteration.
6) I saw that the Me'iri is a good proof for the way the Chavos Ya'ir learns in the Rambam. The Me'iri writes that the Halachah follows Raban Shimon ben Gamliel, and he concludes that this means that Tefilin and Mezuzos may be written only in Ashuri writing, while other Sefarim, even a Sefer Torah, may be written in Greek writing, on condition that the language is not changed. If the language is changed, the Sefer possesses no Kedushah.
According to the Me'iri, then, it must not be a translation, only a transliteration.
Since the Me'iri usually follows the opinion of the Rambam, this suggests that the opinion of the Chavos Ya'ir about the Rambam's Shitah is correct.
7) I also found in the annotated edition of Rabeinu Chananel on Megilah 9b that the author of the footnotes learns like I wrote above (point 4), that Rabeinu Chananel is the same as the Rambam on this issue. The annotator, in note 46, also cites Hilchos Sefer Torah, by a Talmid of Rav Nisim Gaon, who writes that Raban Shimon ben Gamliel meant that it may be written in Greek characters, but the language must be Lashon ha'Kodesh.
8) I would like to suggest a source for the Rambam that the language must be Lashon ha'Kodesh even though the letters may be Greek. The Rambam is consistent with what he writes in Hilchos Sotah 3:8, that the Parshah of Sotah must be written in Lashon ha'Kodesh. The Rashash (Megilah 8b) points out that the Kesef Mishneh does not mention what the Rambam's source for saying this is. I would like to suggest that his source is his ruling that the Torah must be read in Lashon ha'Kodesh. This is a dispute between the Rabanan and Rebbi in Berachos 13a, and the Rambam rules like the Rabanan that the Torah must be read in Lashon ha'Kodesh. Since the Parshah of Sotah must be read out in Lashon ha'Kodesh, it follows that it must also be written in Lashon ha'Kodesh. It also follows that since every part of the Torah must be read in Lashon ha'Kodesh, it must also be written in Lashon ha'Kodesh, so even though Raban Shimon said that it may be written in Greek, this must mean Greek characters and Hebrew language.
9) I also found some different opinions:
a) I found an interesting Shitah in one of the Rishonim, the Ra'avyah. This is in Sefer Ra'avyah on Maseches Megilah #549, page 254. He writes that according to Raban Shimon ben Gamliel it must be either the Greek language and the Greek characters, or Ashuris writing and Lashon ha'Kodesh. What one may not have is characters different from the language. So according to the Ra'avyah, transliteration is out but a Greek translation is acceptable.
b) The Ritva says a different Peshat. He writes that according to the Tana Kama who says that Sefarim may be written in any language, they also may be written in any characters. The Ritva writes that the rule is that if the language is permitted, the writing is also permitted. It seems from the Ritva that the difference between the Tana Kama and Raban Shimon is that the only language that Raban Shimon permits is Greek, but he agrees with the rule that if the language is permitted, the writing is also permitted. According to the Ritva, it seems to be flexible. Since Greek is permitted, both the language and the characters are permitted, so that would seem to mean that one may have the Greek language in Hebrew characters, or the Hebrew language in Greek characters.
c) With regard to the episode of Ptolemy: The Perush of the Yefeh Mar'eh on the Agados of the Talmud Yerushalmi asks the following question. If Raban Shimon ben Gamliel learned from a verse that one may write the Torah in Greek ("Yaft Elokim l'Yefes" as the Gemara here in Megilah 9b states), why then does Rebbi Yehudah say on 9a that when the Chachamim permitted the translation of the Torah, they permitted it only in Greek, which seems to imply that it is only mid'Rabanan that one may translate to Greek?
The Yefeh Mar'eh answers that before the incident with Ptolemy, it was permitted mid'Oraisa to translate the Torah into Greek, but mid'Rabanan it was prohibited because Lashon ha'Kodesh is certainly preferable to Greek. When Ptolemy demanded the translation, it was decided that it was unwise to get on bad terms with the king because of a Rabbincal prohibition, so they reverted to the Din of the Torah. Once they had translated it into Greek for Ptolemy, they remained with the original Heter to translate into Greek.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
R Bloom, this fantastic answer was from a year ago but I saw an interesting rayah that I wanted to share. In today's daily rambam, for those doing the 1 chapter a day cycle, it mentions the following (23:14):
It is permitted to save118 all sacred writings119 that are found in one courtyard [by transferring them] to another courtyard in the same lane, even though an eruv was not made, provided the lane has three walls and a pole [in the place of the fourth wall].120
[The above leniencies apply] provided that the [sacred writings] are written in the Assyrian script121 and in Hebrew.122
This seems to indicate that there was at least the possibility that you had transliterations being written, otherwise there would be no need to stay "ashuris and in hebrew" because ashuris by itself would imply hebrew.
This does indeed suggest that it is possible that there were transliterations written. However, the Rambam there (Hilchos Shabbos 23:26) concludes that one is not allowed to read such writings even on a weekday.
So even though these transliterations might have been written, according to the Rambam this did not have the permission of Chazal.
Josh, it is great that you are remembering the previous Sugyos as you learn new Inyanim!
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom