why is betzirah considered a Toldoh of Kotzeir--it is totally analogous to Kotzeir no different than Bishul-Afiyah and I would think that these two are certainly both Ovos?
thank you for your help.
Aurel Littmann
Your question is a very strong one especially in the light of what the Rambam Hilchos Shabbos 7:4 writes that "Kotzeir" produce or "Botzeir" grapes are Avos of the same melachah on Shabbos [in fact the Gemara Shabbos 73b states that Ketzirah and Betzirah are one Melachah , although it does not say explicitly that Betzirah is an Av] because the person who did them "intended to uproot something from the place where it grows". The Rambam would appear to be contradicted by our Gemara which calls Betzirah a Toldah (even though it is a Toldah for which one is culpable).
(a) Eglei Tal (by the author of Avnei Nezer) on Hilchos Shabbos (on the Melachah of Zoreya 2:6) answers by making a distinction between the principles of Shabbos and the princioles of Shemitah. On Shabbos the golden rule is that everything depends on "Meleches Machsheves" (see Shmos 35:33 that this term is used in connection with the buildding of the Mishkan and the laws of Shabbos are derived from the juxtaposition of the command on Shabbos to the building of the Mishkan)- "work of thought" i.e. it depends on what one's thought and intentions are. Therefore on Shabbos Ketzirah and Betzirah are both the same Av because one's intention with both was exactly the same - to uproot the wheat or grapes from where they grow.
In contrast Tosfos (below 13a DH Netievah) writes that on Shevi'is one does not require "Meleches Macsheves". On Shemitah the main thing is the action performed, not the intention behind it. Therefore even though the purpose of Ketzirah and Betzirahis is identical, nevertheless the physical action of reaping wheat is different from that of plucking grapes (for instance one needs machinery for Katzirah whilost Batzirah can be done by hand).
(b) Some commentators answer that the word Toldah used here by the Gemara is not in fact accurate, but rather Betzirah really is an Av. See Mahari Korkos Hilchos Shemitah v'Yovel 1:4 DH v'Kein who writes that even though the Gemara here says that the Torah only forbade Avos but not Toldos, this also is not totally accurate because even Avos which are not stated explicitly in the Torah are not forbidden by the Torah {this is why Rambam Shemitah v'Yovel 1:4 writes that someone who plows the field or plants a tree on Shemitah only receives Makas Mardus- i.e. Miderabono]. Similarly Betzirah is called a Toldah here, even though it is totally similar to Ketzirah, but nevertheless it is mentioned by the Torah after Ketzirah and therefore is considered as being included in Ketzirah.
Keren Orah also writes that the word "Toldah" used here is slighty inaccurate because "Zemirah" and Betzirah are both in fact Avos in Hilchos Shabbos. In other words the Gemara only calls something an Av if it is the chief example of the Melachah.
Kol Tuv,
D. Bloom
Dear Rabbi Bloom Sh'Lita,
Thank you for your thoroughly researched and thoughtful answer. I appreciate your helping me understand this question.
Would you be kind enough to tell me if there is a practical difference between Toldah and Av in hilchos Shabbos (other than maybe hasro.) I thought I found a difference in Sh'mittah -- but you seem to be telling me that these words are not being used in the Shabbos (nor true)sense.
Also, how did chazal know which 39 malochos to pick? Did they have a messorah or a keen insight into how the Mishkan was built?
Are Ketzirah/Betzirah; Bishul/Afiyah co-Av's?
And, again, what is the ramification of being an AV or a Toldah?
Thank you again,
Ah koosherin Peisach!
(1) Your question is asked by the Gemara in Baba Kama 2a - what is the difference between Av and Toldah? The Gemara answers that if a person did 2 different Avos together, or 2 different Toldos together, then he is culpable for each Melacha. In contrast, if he did an Av, and the Toldah of that same Av together, he is only culpable once.
The Rambam Hilchos Shabbos 7:7-8 explains that the only ramification whether it is an Av or a Toldah is in respect to the sacrifice one has to bring to the Beis Hamikdash. He then gives a practical illustration of this. For instance, if someone plowed, sowed seeds and reaped produce in one "He'elem" ( for instance, he had forgotten that these Melachos are forbidden on Shabbos and did all 3 before he remembered again that they are forbidden) he must offer up 3 "Chato'os". However if he ground produce and then chopped up vegetables and then planed a bar of metal [all 3 of these activities are "Techinah" - grinding] in one He'elem, he is only culpable for 1 korbon because he did the Av (grinding produce) together with the Toldos (chopping vegetables and planing metal to obtain the metal, e.g. gold, dust).
(2) The Gemara in Shabbos 70a says that the 39 Melachos were passed down to Moshe Rabeinu on Har Sinai. However the Gemara Shabbos 49b also asks what these Melachos corresponded to. According to one opinion (a) there in the Gemara they correspond to the 39 Melachos that were performed in the Mishkan, and according to another opinion (b) they correspond to the number of times that "Melacha" is mentioned in the Torah. (It would appear to me that one has to say that after the time of Moshe Rabeinu it was forgotten which Melachos were taught to Moshe on Mt. Sinai, so there was a dispute in Chazal what they corresponded to).
The Rashba in Shabbos 49b asks according to (b) how do we know which is an Av and which is a Toldah, and furthermore, even though we know the number of Melachos but how do we know which activities they are - did the Chachamim chose for themselves which activities are forbidden?! (this seems a similar question to yours). It seems that the Rashba only asks this question according to (b) whilst according to (a) we know that Chazal possessed a Mesorah which Melachos were in the Mishkan.
The Rashba answers that according to (b) it is only the number 39 which is derived from the number of times "Melacha" is mentioned in the Torah, but (b) agrees that the 39 most important activities in the Mishkan are the ones that are forbidden on Shabbos. (See also Tosfos there DH K'Neged and Ramban ). The above Gemara in Baba Kama 2a actully mentions this Svara - that Melachos which were important in the Mishkan are termed an Av and Melachos which were not important in the Mishkan are called a Toldah.
It seems therefore that Chazal possessed a tradition which Melachos were in the Mishkan. See the Gemara in Shabbos 49b which states "They sowed seeds, so you should not sow seeds, They reaped so you should not reap etc." See also, for instance, Shabbos end 74b where the Gemara asks where was there a Melacha of tearing clothes in the Mishkan? The Gemara answers that if one of the curtains became devoured by worms, it would be torn and re-sown.
(3) See Rambam Hilchos Shabbos 7:4 who writes that Ketzirah on produce and Betzirah on grapes are the same Av. See also Rambam 9:1 who writes that baking (Afiyah) of bread and cooking (Bishul) of food is the same thing. I do not know of a practical ramification whether they are considered the same Av, or considered an Av and a Toldah, but above in (1) we saw a ramification whether something is an Av and a Toldah of the same Av, or alternatively 2 different Avos, in respect to how many Korbonos one would have to bring.
A KOSHER UND FROILICHER PESACH
D. Bloom