ESTIMATING NESINAS TA'AM
Question: Does Chelev really forbid the rest of the animal?!
A case occurred in which a kid was roasted with its Chelev, and R. Yochanan permitted it, except for the areas around the Chelev!
Answer #1: It was a thin kid. (Its Chelev does not spread, or it did not have enough Chelev to give Ta'am to the kid.)
Answer #2 (Rav Huna bar Yehudah): The case was, a kidney was cooked with its Chelev. R. Yochanan permitted the kidney.
Answer #3 (Ravin bar Rav Ada): A kidney was cooked in a pot with its Chelev. R. Yochanan said that a Kefeila (Nochri chef) should see if he tastes Chelev in the kidney.
Question (Rava - Beraisa): One may not cook milk in a pot in which meat was cooked;
If he did, and the milk absorbed the Ta'am of meat, the milk is forbidden;
One may not cook Chulin in a pot in which Terumah was cooked;
If he did, and the Terumah gave taste to the Chulin, the Chulin must be eaten (by a Kohen, in Taharah,) like Terumah.
Granted, regarding Terumah, a Kohen may taste the food.
(Summation of question): However, one may not taste the milk. Perhaps it is forbidden!
Answer (Rava): We rely on a Kefeila, like R. Yochanan said (above).
(Rava): Sometimes, Chachamim say that we taste food (to see if it absorbed taste). Sometimes, we rely on a Kefeila. Sometimes, we say that an Isur is Batel if and only if it was mixed with 60 times its own volume of Heter (permitted food):
If diverse foods were mixed, and all are permitted to (some) Yisrael, the Yisrael tastes it;
If diverse foods were mixed, and one of them is forbidden to all Yisraelim, a Kefeila tastes it;
In the following two cases an Isur is Batel in 60 times its own volume;
It was mixed b'Mino (with Heter that tastes the same);
If was mixed b'Eino Mino (with Heter that tastes differently), and a Kefeila is not available.
Some thighs were salted with the Gid ha'Nasheh inside. Ravina forbade them, and Rav Acha permitted them.
(Mar bar Rav Ashi): My father permits them.
Question (Rav Acha, to Ravina): Do you forbid them because Shmuel taught that salted food is like Rose'ach (boiling hot), and pickling is like cooking?
Shmuel forbade the thigh only if it was cooked with the Gid. If it was roasted, it suffices to peel off the layer around the Gid!
Suggestion: Shmuel said that salted food is like Rose'ach. Perhaps he means that it is like cooking.
Rejection: Since he said that pickling is like cooking, we infer that salting is not, rather it is like roasting.
This is left difficult (for Ravina). (Text of the She'iltos, cited in the margin, is - we can learn from here (like Rav Acha and Rav Ashi).)
(R. Chanina): When estimating whether an Isur (Tosfos - a forbidden absorption in a pot) is a 60th of the mixture, we include the gravy, the sediment, the solid pieces, and the pot.
Version #1: 'The pot' refers to (the volume of the walls of) the pot itself.
Version #2: 'The pot' refers to the Heter absorbed in the walls of the pot.
(R. Avahu): If an Isur became mixed with other food, and we cannot test whether or not it gives Ta'am (since both have the same taste, or no one here is permitted to taste it), we gauge whether the same volume (as the Isur) of onions or leeks would give taste to the mixture.
Question (R. Aba): Perhaps we should gauge using peppers or spices. Even minute quantities of them give taste!
Answer (Abaye): Chachamim gauged that no Isur gives taste more than onions and leeks. (The Rashash asked that there are forbidden peppers or spices, e.g. of Orlah, that give taste to 1000 times their volume.)
(Rav Nachman): The Gid ha'Nasheh does not forbid a mixture 60 times its own size. It itself is not counted towards 60 parts of mixture;
A (cooked) udder does not forbid a mixture 60 times its own size. It itself is counted towards the 60 (parts of mixture);
An egg does not forbid a mixture 60 times its own size. It itself is not counted towards the 60.
(R. Yitzchak brei d'Rav Mesharshiya): The udder itself is forbidden. If it falls into another pot, it forbids that pot (if it is more than one part in 60).
Question: Must the first pot have 60 times the volume of the entire udder (to be permitted), or only what exuded from it?
Answer: It must be 60 times the entire udder. We do not know how much exuded!
Question: If so, if the udder falls into another pot, it should not forbid it (since we assume that all the forbidden taste left the udder)!
Answer: Since the udder itself becomes forbidden, we view it like a Nevelah (which is always forbidden, and forbids mixtures).