MENACHOS 22 (21 Elul) - Dedicated in memory of Miriam (Teitelbaum) z'l bas Yehudah Aryeh and Brachah.

1)

IS MIN B'MINO BATEL? [Mixtures: Min b'Mino]

(a)

Gemara

1.

(Mishnah): If blood became mixed with water, if it still looks like blood, it is Kosher. If it became mixed with blood of a Chulin animal, we consider the Chulin blood to be like water;

2.

R. Yehudah says, blood is not Mevatel blood.

3.

22b (Mishnah - R. Yehudah): If a Kometz was mixed with Minchas Kohen Gadol or Nesachim, it is Pasul, for they contain a larger proportion of oil than a Kometz, and they absorb from each other.

4.

Question: Even if they absorb from each other, why is it Pasul? This is Min b'Mino!

5.

Answer (Rava): R. Yehudah holds that if something is mixed with Min and Eino Mino, we ignore Mino, and Eino Mino (if there is enough), is Mevatel it.

6.

Avodah Zarah 66a (Abaye): If new wine fell onto grapes, it forbids them b'Mashehu. It depends on the taste, so this is like Min b'Mino

7.

(Rava): It depends on the name, so this is like Min b'Eino Mino, which forbids b'Nosen Ta'am.

8.

(Abaye): If wine vinegar and beer vinegar were mixed together, or Se'or (sourdough) made from wheat and Se'or of barely became mixed, since these have different tastes, this is like Min b'She'eino Mino. It forbids b'Nosen Ta'am;

9.

(Rava): Since these have the same name (both are called vinegar (or Se'or)), this is like Min b'Mino. It forbids b'Mashehu.

10.

73b (Mishnah): The general rule is: Min b'Mino forbids b'Mashehu. Lo b'Mino forbids b'Nosen Ta'am.

11.

(Rav and Shmuel): All forbidden foods, if mixed Lo b'Mino, forbid b'Nosen Ta'am. The Mishnah's general rule includes all forbidden foods.

12.

(R. Yochanan and Reish Lakish): Only Tevel and Yayin Nesech forbid b'Mashehu Min b'Mino. Everything else forbids b'Nosen Ta'am. The Mishnah's general rule includes Tevel.

13.

We are more stringent about Yayin Nesech due to the severity of idolatry. We are more stringent about Tevel, for its Isur resembles the way it becomes permitted;

i.

(Shmuel): Separating even one grain of Terumah permits any quantity of Tevel (mid'Oraisa).

14.

Pesachim 30a (Rava): The Halachah is, in its time, Chametz forbids b'Mashehu, whether b'Mino or Lo b'Mino. This is like Rav;

15.

Chulin 97b (Rava): If an Isur was mixed with Heter Min b'Mino, since we cannot gauge if it gives taste, it is Batel in 60 times its own volume:

16.

98a: A k'Zayis of Chelev fell into a pan of meat. Rav Ashi thought to include what had been absorbed by the pot in the calculation of whether there was enough Heter to Mevatel the Chelev.

17.

(R. Chiya bar Aba, citing R. Yehoshua ben Levi): Any Isur in the Torah is Batel among 60 parts of Heter;

18.

(R. Shmuel bar Rav Yitzchak): R. Yehoshua ben Levi said that it is Batel among 100 parts of Heter.

19.

Both opinions learn from (Bitul of) the Zero'a (foreleg) of Eil Nazir. The Zero'a is cooked with the ram. The Zero'a is forbidden to Zarim, but the rest of the ram is permitted. I.e., the Ta'am of the Zero'a is Batel in the ram. There is 60 times as much meat and bones in the ram as in the foreleg, and 100 times as much meat. (The latter opinion ignores the bones, for they do not give or absorb Ta'am.)

20.

(Beraisa): This is the case of Isur becoming permitted.

21.

Question: Why don't we learn to other Isurim?

22.

Answer #1 (Abaye): The Beraisa is like R. Yehudah, who says that Min b'Mino is never Batel. Only the Zero'a is Batel b'Mino. It is a Chidush (we are Mevatel an Isur l'Chatchilah), so we may not learn a leniency from it;

23.

We do learn from it that an Isur is Batel in 60 or 100 parts of Heter. This is a stringency. Mid'Oraisa, an Isur is Batel in any majority!

24.

Zevachim 79a (Abaye): R. Yehudah himself considers Mino like Eino Mino. In our Mishnah he teaches according to his Rebbi, who says that Min b'Mino is never Batel.

25.

(Beraisa - R. Yehudah citing R. Gamliel): Blood is not Mevatel blood.

26.

79b (Beraisa): If a Zav used (urinated in) an earthenware urinal, and afterwards Tehorim used it, even after 10 times, it is Tamei.

27.

R. Eliezer ben Yakov says, after three times, it is Tahor.

28.

The first Tana is like R. Yehudah, who says that Min b'Mino is never Batel.

(b)

Rishonim

1.

Rif (Avodah Zarah 36b): Some say that the Halachah follows R. Yochanan and Reish Lakish, for the Halachah follows R. Yochanan against Rav or Shmuel. Some say that here the Halachah follows Rav and Shmuel, for the argument of Abaye and Rava about Se'or of wheat and barley is according to Rav and Shmuel.

i.

Ran (DH ul'Inyan): R. Yehudah said that Min b'Mino is not Batel according to R. Gamliel, but he himself disagrees. The Halachah follows the Rabim against R. Gamliel.

ii.

Note: Rava argues there, and says that R. Yehudah holds like R. Gamliel!

iii.

Ran (ibid.): The Ra'avad brings a proof from the case of a k'Zayis of Chelev that fell into meat. Even though Chelev and meat are Min b'Mino, Rav Ashi wanted to include absorptions for a Shi'ur of Bitul. Also Rashi said that the Halachah follows Rabanan in the Sugya of a mouse that fell into beer, even though in Chulin he ruled like Shmuel. Even though all Isurim are Batel in Nosen Ta'am, Chachamim gave Shi'urim of 100 and 200 for Terumah, Orlah and Kil'ai ha'Kerem, for they are more stringent. There are exceptions to the rule, e.g. Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirim and Chametz, which forbid b'Mashehu even Min b'Eino Mino.

2.

Rosh (Avodah Zarah 5:29): Rashi (Chulin 109a) says that the Halachah follows R. Yehudah, for Rebbi said 'his words are Nir'im (appear true)', and Rav and Shmuel hold like him. Even though R. Yochanan and Reish Lakish disagree, Abaye and Rava, who are Basra, hold like Rav and Shmuel (Avodah Zarah 66a). Rava rules like Chametz forbids b'Mashehu, like Rav. R. Tam challenged this, for in Chulin, Rava rules that Min b'Mino is Batel in 60! Abaye and Rava argue about Yayin Nesech and Tevel. This is why they discussed specifically these species (wine, vinegar from wine, and wheat and barley, from which Torah obligates tithes). In Pesachim, Rava rules like Rav, but not for Rav's reason. Rav forbids everything Min b'Mino b'Mashehu, and regarding Chametz, he decrees Min b'Eino Mino to be like Min b'Mino. Rava holds that all Isurim forbid b'Nosen Ta'am even Min b'Mino; Chachamim were stringent about Chametz, because people do not refrain from it (the rest of the year). R. Tam forbids all Isurim b'Nosen Ta'am, even Min b'Mino. Chulin 97a proves this. Also, we rule like R. Yochanan against Rav and Shmuel. R. Yehoshua ben Levi says that all Isurim are Batel in 60. Seder Tana'im v'Amora'im rules like R. Yehoshua ben Levi everywhere. R. Eliezer ben Yakov holds that Min b'Mino is Batel, and the Halachah always follows him. The Stam Gemara in Beitzah (38b) says 'since according to Rabanan, Min b'Mino is Batel, they laughed at him.' This shows that the Halachah follows Rabanan. Rava said 'R. Yehudah holds that if something is mixed with Min and Eino Mino...' This shows that Rava himself disagrees.

3.

Rosh (ibid.): R. Yehudai Gaon said that since Rava needed to rule that Chametz forbids Min b'Mino b'Mashehu like Rav, this shows that for other Isurim, the Halachah follows R. Yochanan. I do not understand the proof. Rava needed to rule like Rav, to oppose the opinion that argues! This is the Halachah. All Isurim are Batel in 60, except for Chametz. A Beraisa mentions only Chametz, but not Tevel and Yayin Nesech, for they forbid b'Mashehu even Min b'Eino Mino. People conduct like this. The Rif ruled like Rav. His Talmidim testified that afterwards he erased this and wrote that the Halachah follows R. Yochanan.

4.

Rambam (Hilchos Ma'achalos Asuros 15:4): If Chelev of the kidneys (which is forbidden) was mixed with twice its volume of Chelev of the tail (which is permitted), the Torah permits all of it. Even if a piece of Neveilah became mixed with two pieces of Shechutah (slaughtered meat), the Torah permits all of them. Mid'Rabanan it is all forbidden, unless the Isur is lost because it is so faint, and it is not something important that remained intact, like we will explain.

5.

Rambam (5): Chachamim gave Shi'urim for when an Isur is Batel because it is so faint. Sometimes it is 60, 100 or 200.

6.

Rambam (6): If Isur was mixed with Heter Min b'Mino, since there is no way to gauge whether it gives taste, the Shi'ur is 60, 100 or 200. The exceptions are Yayin Nesech, due to its stringency, and Tevel, for it can be fixed. They forbid any amount.

7.

Rambam (17): If a k'Zayis of Chelev of the kidneys fell into 60 k'Zeisim of Chelev of the tail, all is permitted. If it fell into less than 60, all is forbidden.

i.

Ran (Chulin Reish 34b): Rava and Rav Ashi are Basra. They hold that Min b'Mino is Batel in 60. We hold like them.

ii.

Ran (Chulin Reish 35b): Mid'Oraisa, Min b'Mino is Batel in a majority even when an intact Isur became mixed. Mid'Rabanan we require 60, whether an intact Isur or a mere absorption was mixed. This is for things that totally mix. For a dry mixture, Min b'Mino is Batel in the majority even mid'Rabanan.

(c)

Poskim

1.

Shulchan Aruch (YD 98:1): If Isur was mixed with Heter Min b'Mino, since there is no way to gauge whether it gives taste, we estimate with 60.

i.

Gra (6): The Halachah does not follow R. Yehudah, like Rava, R. Yochanan and Reish Lakish taught. Yayin Nesech and Tevel are exceptions. The Sugya in Chulin 98a is like this. R. Yehoshua ben Levi holds like this, and the Halachah always follows him. In Avodah Zarah 69a, we rule that Isurim are Batel in 60.

ii.

Note: The Gemara there discussed a mouse that fell into beer or vinegar. The Gra must derive from the words 'all Isurim are Batel in 60' that this includes Min b'Mino.

2.

Shulchan Aruch (2): If (Heter and Isur) were mixed Min b'Mino and we cannot tell (the quantities of each), if we know that the majority was Heter, it is permitted. If we do not know that the majority was Heter, it is forbidden.

i.

Taz (3 and Shach 6): The Poskim conclude that Min b'Mino is Batel mid'Oraisa in the majority. It is forbidden mid'Rabanan if there is not 60 times as much Heter. Therefore, if there is a Safek whether or not there are 60, one may be lenient.

ii.

Beis Yosef (DH Bein): Also the Rashba rules that Min b'Mino is Batel in 60. The Rivash says that all Acharonim agree.

See also:

Other Halachos relevant to this Daf:

GIVING TO THE TZIBUR (Menachos 46)

OTHER D.A.F. RESOURCES
ON THIS DAF