More Discussions for this daf
1. Rabbi Eliezer 2. Modern day magic 3. Shevus prohibition
4. Kishuf 5. Symbolism 6. קטן אינו מוליד
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SANHEDRIN 68

Yonatan Milevsky asked:

If water is the way to test (or undo) kishuf, how could have the mixture which Yanai spilled-out turned into scorpions. No magic should ever have taken hold on it...?

Yonatan Milevsky, Toronto, Canada

The Kollel replies:

Possibly the key lies in RASHI 67b DH POSHAR who writes that "all kinds of witchcraft can be checked by Mayim Chayim (literally "live water" i.e. flowing fountain water) which dissolves them". This implies that not any water undoes Kishuf but only "Mayim Chayim". The latter is mentioned sometimes by the Torah; see for instance Vayikra 14:5, and means spring water. Therefore I would suggest that the mixture that Yanai spilled out was composed of flour mixed with ordinary water i.e. water which had been collected from vessels, not from spring water. Such water could indeed turn into scorpions through Yanai's magic.

KOL TUV

D. Bloom

Yonatan Milevsky asked:

If water is the way to test (or undo) kishuf, how could have the mixture which Yanai spilled-out turned into scorpions. No magic should ever have taken hold on it...?

Yonatan Milevsky, Toronto, Canada

The Kollel replies:

Possibly the key lies in RASHI 67b DH POSHAR who writes that "all kinds of witchcraft can be checked by Mayim Chayim (literally "live water" i.e. flowing fountain water) which dissolves them". This implies that not any water undoes Kishuf but only "Mayim Chayim". The latter is mentioned sometimes by the Torah; see for instance Vayikra 14:5, and means spring water. Therefore I would suggest that the mixture that Yanai spilled out was composed of flour mixed with ordinary water i.e. water which had been collected from vessels, not from spring water. Such water could indeed turn into scorpions through Yanai's magic.

KOL TUV

D. Bloom

Follow-up reply:

Here is another approach to Kishuf and water. I found in YOSEF DA'AS Sanhedrin end 67b that he cites MEGADIM CHADASHIM SHABBOS 81b DH VE'HINEH (by R. Dovid Yoel Weiss Shlita of Jerusalem) who quotes YERUSHALMI SANHEDRIN 7:13 (41a) that a "Min" split the sea through magic. Megadim Chadashim writes that one learns from this that it is possible to perform Kishuf in water itself. Our Gemara only said that if Kishuf was done on an object, when this object comes to the water the Kishuf is undone, but in water itself it is possible to do Kishuf. With this idea MEGADIM CHADASHIM also explains Gemara Shabbos end 81b which relates how the Matronisa stopped - through Kishuf - the ship she was travelling in.

On the basis of the above, your question can also be answered. Even though the "Shatitah" contained water it was still possible to produce scorpions from it through Kishuf. All the Gemara said before was that if the donkey which had been created by Kishuf would have been brought to water, the Kishuf would have been undone.

(Incidentally MEGADIM CHADASHIM there DH VE'EFSHAR also points out that according to Rashi 67b DH POSHAR, Kishuf is only dissolved in "Mayim Chayim" as I wrote last time, and notes that CHIDA - R. Chayim Yosef David Azulai - writes this principle in many of his books.)

YEYASHER KOACH

D. Bloom

Yonatan Milevsky asked:

If water is the way to test (or undo) kishuf, how could have the mixture which Yanai spilled-out turned into scorpions. No magic should ever have taken hold on it...?

Yonatan Milevsky, Toronto, Canada

The Kollel replies:

Possibly the key lies in RASHI 67b DH POSHAR who writes that "all kinds of witchcraft can be checked by Mayim Chayim (literally "live water" i.e. flowing fountain water) which dissolves them". This implies that not any water undoes Kishuf but only "Mayim Chayim". The latter is mentioned sometimes by the Torah; see for instance Vayikra 14:5, and means spring water. Therefore I would suggest that the mixture that Yanai spilled out was composed of flour mixed with ordinary water i.e. water which had been collected from vessels, not from spring water. Such water could indeed turn into scorpions through Yanai's magic.

KOL TUV

D. Bloom

Follow-up reply:

Here is another approach to Kishuf and water. I found in YOSEF DA'AS Sanhedrin end 67b that he cites MEGADIM CHADASHIM SHABBOS 81b DH VE'HINEH (by R. Dovid Yoel Weiss Shlita of Jerusalem) who quotes YERUSHALMI SANHEDRIN 7:13 (41a) that a "Min" split the sea through magic. Megadim Chadashim writes that one learns from this that it is possible to perform Kishuf in water itself. Our Gemara only said that if Kishuf was done on an object, when this object comes to the water the Kishuf is undone, but in water itself it is possible to do Kishuf. With this idea MEGADIM CHADASHIM also explains Gemara Shabbos end 81b which relates how the Matronisa stopped - through Kishuf - the ship she was travelling in.

On the basis of the above, your question can also be answered. Even though the "Shatitah" contained water it was still possible to produce scorpions from it through Kishuf. All the Gemara said before was that if the donkey which had been created by Kishuf would have been brought to water, the Kishuf would have been undone.

(Incidentally MEGADIM CHADASHIM there DH VE'EFSHAR also points out that according to Rashi 67b DH POSHAR, Kishuf is only dissolved in "Mayim Chayim" as I wrote last time, and notes that CHIDA - R. Chayim Yosef David Azulai - writes this principle in many of his books.)

YEYASHER KOACH

D. Bloom

Additional follow-up reply:

There is another way of understanding how Kishuf could be performed on Shatitah, even though it contained water. The reason is because there was more flour in it than water and therefore the water was "Batel" in the majority of flour. Since the Torah always says to follow the majority, this is now considered a flour substance and is not water, so Kishuf may have power over it.

See Eruvin 29b Rashi DH SHATITAH who writes that Shatitah is a foodstuff made from roasted flour which has been dried in an oven and honey has been mixed into the dish. This suggests that water is not a major ingredient of Shatitah. See also Berachos 38a that the blessing on thick Shatitah is "Borei Minei Mezonos" because it is made for eating, whilst the blessing on thin Shatitah is "Shehakol" because it is made for healing.

MISHNEH BERURAH 208:23 writes that one makes Shehakol on the thin Shatitah because since there is so much water in it that it can no longer be eaten, it is no longer considered a food and therefore one says the same Berachah as for water. It follows that the Shatitah of our Gemara must be the thick variety, where water is in a minority and Kishuf still has power over it.

KOL TUV

D.Bloom