More Discussions for this daf
1. Asmachta 2. Is gambling considered to be Asmachta even in modern times? 3. Statement of Rebbi Yochanan
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SANHEDRIN 24

Yehoshua asks:

It says in Sanhedrin Daf 24, "What is Bavel? Mixed with Torah, mixed with Mishnah, mixed with Talmud"

This is very interesting that the statement is being made by R' Yochanan. He was from the first generation of Amoroim in Eretz Yisrael (Someone not even from Bavel and far from the time when the Talmud was completed) and from his Beis Medresh came Talmud Yerushalmi? What shaychas does he have to make such a statement about Talmud Bavli (when certainly the same could be said about Talmud Yerushalmi).

Although perhaps only a "historical" question it's still a little interesting why the gemorah is quoted this b'shem R' Yochanan. Perhaps the Rabbonim Shlit"a by the Kollel might have something to say on this. Thanks!

Yehoshua, Yerushalayim, Eretz Yisrael

The Kollel replies:

The easier question to answer is that the Talmud Yerushami has a much lower percentage of Agadah than the Talmud Bavli, and accordingly much fewer Pesukim are quoted. The lack of Pesukim and Agadah is what Rebbi Yochanan was referring to when he focused on Talmud Bavli having these qualities.

Regarding your excellent question regarding Rebbi Yochanan making this statement, the Sefer Doros ha'Rishonim explains at length a very understandable approach, yet one known by few. The Talmud Bavli was already established in the early days of the Amora'im. Each generation of Amora'im added to the Talmud Bavli until the finishing touches were put on it by Ravina and Rav Ashi. The same is true regarding the Mishnah. It was only slightly edited by Rebbi; it had already existed very close to its present form before Rebbi.

Many proofs support this approach, but due to the limited scope of this forum I will give only one for Mishnah and one for Gemara. The last Mishnah in Kelim quotes Rebbi Yosi as stating, "Praised are you, [Meseches] Kelim! You started with purity and ended with purity!" How would he know this if there was not yet a Meseches Kelim?

Regarding Gemara, we find many places where the earlier Amora'im already had a Gemara they learned from or taught. In Igeres Rav Sherira Ga'on (end of his essay regarding the writing of the Gemara), he explains that this is what is meant by the Gemara in Sanhedrin (41b) where Rav Kahana, who had learned Sanhedrin in Rabah's Beis Medrash, was asked, "What was said in Sanhedrin as taught by Rabah?" (Rashi there gives another explanation, but there are many other proofs.) Rav Sherira Ga'on states clearly that each generation added different parts to the Talmud to what had already been taught previously until it was compiled later into the Talmud Bavli.

All the best,

Yaakov Montrose