TOSFOS DH Eima b'Chol Mekomos Machaneh Yisrael (cont.)
úåñôåú ã"ä àéîà áëì î÷åîåú îçðä éùøàì (äîùê)
åðøàä ãàó ùòú äìéëúí ùøé ëéåï ãàîøé' ìòéì (ãó ñà.) àò''ô ùðñò àäì îåòã äåà
Explanation #2: It seems that even while traveling they are permitted, like we said above (61a) "even though it traveled, it is Ohel Mo'ed."
åãå÷à ì÷ãùéí ÷ìéí àò''ô ùðñò àäì îåòã äåà àáì ÷ãùé ÷ãùéí ãáòé îçéöä ëéåï ãðñúì÷å îñòåú àéï îçðä ùëéðä ÷ééí åìçí äôðéí åùàø ÷ãùé ÷ãùéí îéôñìé áéåöà
Limitation: Only for Kodshim Kalim, "even though it traveled, it is Ohel Mo'ed", but Kodshei Kodoshim require a Mechitzah. Once [the Degalim] departed to travel, Machaneh Shechinah is not intact, and Lechem ha'Panim and other Kodshei Kodoshim are disqualified due to Yotzei.
ëãîåëç áîðçåú áô' ùúé äìçí (ãó öä.) åìòéì áô' ÷ãùé ÷ãùéí (ãó ñ:) ãàîø áùðé î÷åîåú ÷ãùéí ðàëìéï åîå÷é ìä á÷ãùé ÷ãùéí åìàçø ùéôø÷å ìåéí àú äîùëï äééðå ëì æîï ùìà ðñò îëì åëì ãòãééï äîæáç å÷ìòé äçöø áî÷åîï
Source: This is proven in Menachos (95a) and above (60b). It says that Kodshim are eaten in two places, and we establish it to discuss Kodshei Kodoshim, after the Leviyim dismantled the Mishkan, i.e. as long as it did not travel. The Mizbe'ach and curtains around Chatzer [ha'Mishkan] are in their places.
åà''ú áøéù ùúé äìçí (îðçåú ãó öä.) ãôìéâé áìçí äôðéí àí ðôñì áîñòåú åîôøù ãáîñåãø ë''ò ìà ôìéâé ãìà îéôñéì ëé ôìéâé áîñåì÷
Question: In Menachos (95a, R. Yochanan and R. Yehoshua ben Levi) argue about whether or not Lechem ha'Panim is disqualified at the time of traveling. [Rav Dimi] explains that if the bread is arranged [on the Shulchan], all agree that it is not disqualified. They argue about when it was removed;
îàï ãàîø àéðå ðôñì ëããøùéðï ãàò''ô ùðñò àäì îåòã äåà
The one who says that it is not disqualified learns like we expounded, that even though it traveled, it is Ohel Mo'ed;
åàéãê ääåà ìãâìéí äåà ãàúà ôé' ìäåãéò àéæä ãâì éñò úçìä
The other opinion holds that [v'Nosa Ohel Mo'ed] this is for the Degalim, i.e. to inform which Degel travels first." (They carry the Mishkan after Degel Reuven, and before Degel Efrayim.)
åäùúà àîàé ìà îùðé ãàúà ì÷ãùéí ÷ìéí åì÷ãùé ÷ãùéí ÷åãí ñéìå÷ ä÷ìòéí
Summation of question: Why didn't we answer that it comes for Kodshim Kalim, and for Kodshei Kodoshim before removing the curtains? (Tosfos 61b DH Af said that surely, traveling of the Machanos does not disqualify Kodshim Kalim due to Yotzei.)
TOSFOS DH veha'Torah Amrah Badad Yeshev
úåñôåú ã"ä åäúåøä àîøä áãã éùá
(SUMMARY: Tosfos points out that R. Shimon learns from elsewhere.)
ùìà éäå èîàéí àçøéí éåùáéí òîå
Explanation: Other Temei'im may not dwell with him.
àò''â ãäê ñåâéà ìø''ù åäê ãøùà ìø' éäåãä ãìø''ù ãøéù ìéä î÷øà àçøéðà áôñçéí áøéù àìå ãáøéí (ãó ñå.)
Implied question: Our Sugya is like R. Shimon, and this Drashah is according to R. Yehudah, for R. Shimon expounds from another verse in Pesachim (66a)!
ðéçà ìéä ìäù''ñ ìàúåéé ãøùà äôùåèä åä÷öøä
Answer: The Gemara likes to bring the simple, concise Drashah [even if really, we learn from elsewhere].
TOSFOS DH Pilko Kaltaso
úåñôåú ã"ä ôìëå ÷ìèúå
(SUMMARY: Tosfos brings a source to pronounce the word "Pilko".)
ëó ãâåùä áðçîéä ëîå ðñê ðñëå
Remark: There is a dot in the Kaf in the verse in Nechemyah (3:17 - "l'Filko"), just like the word Nesech (when it has a suffix gets a Dagesh in the Kaf, i.e.) Nisko.
TOSFOS DH Ir she'Kaltaso Kevar
úåñôåú ã"ä òéø ù÷ìèúå ëáø
(SUMMARY: Tosfos resolves this with a Mishnah in Makos.)
òé÷ø ÷øà áøåöç ùäøâ áòéø î÷ìèå
Remark: The verse primarily teaches about a murderer who killed in his Ir Miklat (after he was exiled to there for a previous Shogeg murder).
åúøåééäå úðéðäå áîëåú ô''á (ãó éá:) äøâ áàåúä äòéø âåìä îùëåðä ìùëåðä åìåé âåìä îòéø ìòéø
Implied question: Both of these (the above Halachah, and the law of a Levi who killed) are taught in a Mishnah in Makos (12b). If [a Shogeg murderer] killed in that city, he is exiled from neighborhood to neighborhood. A Levi is exiled from [his] city to another city. (Here we say that a Levi is exiled to a different neighborhood in his city!)
åùîà äééðå ìëúçìä ãáï ìåé âåìä îòéø ìòéø àáì ãéòáã äà àîøé' ãàí âåìä ìúåê ôìëå ôìëå ÷åìèå åîôìê ìôìê äééðå îòéø ìòéø
Answer #1: Perhaps this is l'Chatchilah, that a Levi is exiled from city to city, but b'Di'eved, we say that if he was exiled within his city, his city absorbs him. "From Plach to Plach" means from city to city;
åàí âåìä ìúåê ôìëå ëâåï îùëåðä ìùëåðä åëï îùîò ôé' ä÷åðèøñ
"If he was exiled within his Plach" means (within his city,) from neighborhood to neighborhood. Also Rashi connotes like this.
àé ðîé âí ìëúçìä àéï æ÷å÷ ìöàú îï äòéø åäà ãâåìä ìòéø àçøú ëãé ìäìê ëåìä åáúçåîä
Answer #2: Also l'Chatchilah, he need not leave the city. [The Mishnah] teaches that he is exiled to another city in order to be able to traverse all of it, and within its Techum;
ãàé áòéøå îùëåðä ìùëåðä àí çæø ìùëåðúå ëéöà çåõ ìúçåí
If he were exiled to a different neighborhood in his city, if he returned to his [initial] neighborhood, it is as if he left the Techum (and the Go'el ha'Dam may kill him).
TOSFOS DH Kol ha'Nidar v'Nidev Karev b'Bamah
úåñôåú ã"ä ëì äðéãø åðéãá ÷øá ááîä
(SUMMARY: Tosfos explains the argument about what may be offered where.)
àôé' îðçåú åðæéøåú ÷øá ááîä ÷èðä ëãîôøù åùàéï ðéãø åðéãá àéï ÷øá ááîä ÷èðä ãàéìå öáåø àéï î÷øéáéï á÷èðä
Explanation: Even Menachos and [Korbanos] Nezirus can be offered on a Bamah Ketanah, and what is not brought for a Nedarim and Nedavos cannot be offered on a Bamah Ketanah, whereas [Korbanos] Tzibur cannot be offered on a [Bamah] Ketanah;
åçåáåú ãéçéã àôé' áâãåìä ìà ÷øáé áùòú äéúø äáîåú ìø' îàéø ëãîåëç îìúà ãø' éäåãä ëãôé' á÷åðèøñ
Obligations of an individual are not offered even on a [Bamah] Gedolah at a time when there is a Heter for Bamos according to R. Meir, like is proven from R. Yehudah's words, like Rashi explained;
ãîã÷àîø ø' éäåãä ëì ùäöáåø åéçéã î÷øéáéï ëå' îëìì ãùîòéðäå ìø' îàéø åøáðï ùéù çéìå÷
Since R. Yehudah said "anything that a Tzibur and individual offer...", this implies that he heard according to R. Meir and Rabanan that there is a distinction;
åæäå çìå÷å ùàéï éçéã î÷øéá çåáåú áâìâì àôé' ááîä âãåìä ãø' îàéø åøáðï ãøùé ìà úòùå áâìâì ëëì àùø àðçðå òåùéí ôä äéåí çåáåú åàôé' ááîä âãåìä
This is the distinction. An individual could not offer obligations in Gilgal, even on a Bamah Gedolah, for R. Meir and Rabanan expound "Lo Sa'asu" in Gilgal "k'Chol Asher Anachnu Osim Poh ha'Yom", i.e. obligations, even on a Bamah Gedolah;
àìà àéù äéùø áòéðéå éòùä éùøåú ãäééðå ðãáåú
However, "Ish ha'Yashar b'Einav" - he may offer Yashrus (what he wants to volunteer), i.e. Nedavos.
ø' éäåãä ñáø ãëé ëúéá äéùø àáòéðéå ÷àé ãäéà áîú éçéã
R. Yehudah holds that "ha'Yashar" refers to "b'Einav" (an individual offers as he wants, i.e.) on his own Bamah (but on a Bamas Tzibur, he may offer even Chovos).
TOSFOS DH R. Shimon Omer Af Tzibur Lo Hikrivu v'Chulei
úåñôåú ã"ä øáé ùîòåï àåîø àó öáåø ìà ä÷øéáå ëå'
(SUMMARY: Tosfos discusses the argument about what may be offered where.)
ôé' á÷åðèøñ ø''ù ôìéâ àëåìäå ãëåìäå ñáéøà ìäå ãàéï çéìå÷ ìöáåø áéï îãáø ìâìâì ááîä âãåìä
Explanation #1 (Rashi): R. Shimon argues with all of them, for all of them hold that there is no difference for the Tzibur between the Midbar and Gilgal on a Bamah Gedolah...
åø''ù àåîø àó öáåø òöîï ìà ä÷øéáå áâãåìä éåúø îéçéã á÷èðä àìà ôñçéí ëå' (îëàï îòîåã á) åçåáåú ä÷áåò ìäí æîï
And R. Shimon says that even the Tzibur did not offer on a Gedolah more than an individual offered on a Ketanah, except for Pesachim... and Chovos with a fixed time;
117b----------------------------------------117b
àáì ôø äòìí ãáø åùòéøé òáåãú ëåëáéí ìà ÷øáå ìäí áâìâì òë''ì
However, Par Helam Davar and Se'irei Avodah Zarah were not offered in Gilgal. This is from Rashi.
åáçðí äæëéø ôø äòìí ãáø åùòéøé òáåãú ëåëáéí ùäï çèàåú ùàéï ÷áåò ìäí æîï ãàôé' çèàåú ä÷áåò ìäí æîï ëâåï ùòéøé äøâìéí ìà ÷øáå ìø''ù ëãîñé÷ ì÷îï úúøâí îúðé' áòåìä.
Criticism: There was no need for him to mention Par Helam Davar and Se'irei Avodah Zarah, for they are Chata'os without a fixed time. Even Chatas with a fixed time, e.g. Se'irei ha'Regalim, were not offered according to R. Shimon, like we conclude below (118a) "explain the Mishnah to discuss an Olah."
(äâ''ä åà''ë áéåä''ë ìà ÷øáå öáåø áàäì îåòã' áðåá åâáòåï ìà ôøéí åìà ùòéøéí ëé àí (úîéãéí) [ö"ì ãåîéà ãúîéãéí - öàï ÷ãùéí]
Comment - Consequence: If so, on Yom Kipur the Tzibur did not offer in the Ohel Mo'ed, Nov and Giv'on, not Parim and not Se'irim, rather, only what is like Temidim.
åäà ãàîøé' áúåñôúà ø' éäåãä àåîø àáùìåí ðæéø äéä ùðàîø åéàîø àáùìåí àìëä ðà åàùìí ðãøé àùø ðãøúé áçáøåï ëé ðãø ðãø òáãê áùáúé áâùåø åäàé ÷øà áäéåúí áâáòåï ëúéá
Implied question - Citation (Tosefta - R. Yehudah): Avshalom was a Nazir, for it says "va'Yomer Avshalom Elcha Na va'Ashalem Nidri Asher Nadarti [la'Shem] b'Chevron; Ki Neder Nadar Avdecha b'Shivti vi'Geshor." These verses are when [the Mishkan] was in Giv'on;
åîôøù ô''á ãúîåøä (ãó éã:) ùä÷øéáí áçáøåï ááîú éçéã ãàé äìê áçáøåï ìäáéà ëáùéí èåáéí åìä÷øéáí ááîä âãåìä à''ë îçáøåï îéáòé ìéä
[The Gemara] in Temurah (14b) explains that he offered them in Chevron on a Bamas Yachid, for [if the verse meant that] he went to Chevron to bring good lambs and offer them on a Bamah Gedolah, it should have said "mi'Chevron".
åäùúà ìø' éäåãä àé ðæéøåú ðéãø åðéãá äåà àúé ùôéø ùä÷øéáï ááîú éçéã áçáøåï
According to R. Yehudah, if [Korbanos] Nezirus are [considered to come] through a Neder or Nedavah, it is fine that he offered them on a Bamas Yachid in Chevron;
åàé ðæéøåú çåáä äåé à''ë ä÷øéáï áâáòåï áàäì îåòã ùäéä ùí åìø' (äâäú öàï ÷ãùéí) éäåãä éçéã ðîé îöé î÷øéá çåáåú ááîä âãåìä àó áùòú äéúø äáîåú åìà ãéé÷ áéï îçáøåï åáçáøåï
If Nezirus is a Chovah, if so he offered them in Giv'on in the Ohel Mo'ed, which was there, and according to R. Yehudah also an individual may offer Chovos on a Bamah Gedolah, even at a time of Heter Bamos. He does not distinguish between "mi'Chevron" and "b'Chevron";
àáì øáðï ãàîøé ðæéøåú çåáä äåà åìà ÷øá éçéã çåáåú àó ááîú öáåø áðåá åâáòåï à''ë àáùìåí ìà ðæéø äéä
However, Rabanan, who say that Nezirus is a Chovah, and an individual may not offer Chovos even on the Bamas Tzibur in Nov and Giv'on, if so Avshalom was not a Nazir;
åäà ÷øà ãàìëä ðà (ëï öøéê ìäâéä) åàùìí ðãøé îééøé áðãøéí åðãáåú. äâ''ä)
"Elcha Na va'Ashalem Nidri" discusses Nedarim and Nedavos.
TOSFOS DH R. Shimon Omer Af Tzibur Lo Hikrivu v'Chulei (pertains to Amud A)
úåñôåú ã"ä øáé ùîòåï àåîø àó öáåø ìà ä÷øéáå ëå' (ùééê ìòîåã à)
(SUMMARY: Tosfos resolves this with the Sugya in Megilah.)
ìëàåøä ø''ù àãøáðï ãìòéì îéðéä ÷àé åàéðäå ñáøé ëøáðï ÷îàé ãîðçåú åðæéøåú ìà ÷øáå ááîä ãìéëà áéðééäå àìà ðñëéí ëãîôøù ì÷îéä
Inference: Seemingly, R. Shimon addresses the Rabanan [who spoke] just before him, and they hold like the first Rabanan [in this Beraisa], that Menachos and Nezirus are not offered on a Bamah, for they argue [with the latter Rabanan] only about Nesachim, like it explains below (118a);
ù''î ãìø''ù ðîé ìà ÷øáå ãäà àôé' áöáåø îîòè éåúø îùàø úðàéí
This shows that also R. Shimon holds that they were not offered, for even b'Tzibur he excludes more than the other Tana'im.
åúéîä ãáô''÷ ãîâéìä (ãó è:) [áîúðé' ã÷úðé] àéï áéï áîä âãåìä ìáîä ÷èðä àìà ôñçéí æä äëìì ëì äðéãø åðéãá ÷øá ëå'
Question: In Megilah (9b), in our Mishnah that taught 'the only difference between a Bamah Gedolah and a Bamah Ketanah is Pesachim. This is the Klal - anything brought for Neder or Nedavah..."
åîôøù áâî' ëòéï ôñçéí ãäééðå çåáåú ä÷áåò ìäí æîï àáì ùàéï ÷áåò ìäí æîï äëà åäëà ìà ÷øá åîå÷é ìä ëø''ù
The Gemara explains that [big and small Bamos differ about] what is like Pesachim, i.e. Chovos with a fixed time, but [Chovos] without a fixed time, are not offered on either, and we establish it like R. Shimon.
àìîà ø''ù úðé äàé ëììà à''ë îðçåú åðæéøåú ÷øáé ìø''ù åëãàîøéðï äëà ìø''î ãúðé äàé ëììà
Inference: R. Shimon taught this Klal. If so, Menachos and Nezirus are offered according to R. Shimon, and like we say here according to R. Meir, who taught this Klal! (It turns out that R. Shimon holds just like R. Meir!)
åàé äåä âøñé' áîâéìä æä äëìì ðéãø åðéãá áìà ëì äåä ðéçà ìéä ãëì ãø''î àúé ìøáåéé îðçåú åðæéøåú
Answer #1: If the text in Megilah said "this is the Klal - what is brought for Neder or Nedavah...", without "Kol" (anything), this would be fine. [Here] R. Meir said "Kol" to include Menachos and Nezirus.
åòåã éù ìåîø ãäà ãôùéèà ìéä ìø''î ãîðçåú åðæéøåú éùøåú îùåí ãúðéà áú''ë áôøùú àçøé îåú îä ùìîéí îéåçãéï ùäï ðéãø åðéãá ÷øéáéï ááîä àó ëì ðéãø åðéãá ÷øá ááîä àó äîðçåú åäðæéøåú ãáøé ø''î
Answer #2: It is obvious that R. Meir holds that Menachos and Nezirus are Yashrus, because a Beraisa in Toras Kohanim in Parshas Acharei Mos says "just like Shelamim are special, that they are brought for Neder or Nedavah and they are offered on a Bamah, also everything brought for Neder or Nedavah is offered on a Bamah, even Menachos and Nezirus. These are R. Meir's words."
å÷öú úéîä àé àääéà ñîéê ãìà îééúé ìä
Question #1: If [the Gemara] relies on that [Beraisa, to explain how R. Meir and R. Shimon argue], it is astounding that it did not bring it!
åòåã ìø''ù ãîâéìä îé ðô÷à îðçä îëìì ðéãø åðéãá
Question #2: According to R. Shimon in Megilah, does Minchah not come through Neder or Nedavah?!
åðøàä ìééùá îúðéúéï ãäëé ÷àîø ãàéï çéìå÷ áéï áîä âãåìä ìáîä ÷èðä àìà ôñçéí ëì äðéãø åðéãá ä÷øá ááîä âãåìä ÷øá á÷èðä åëì ùàéï ðéãø åðéãá ùàéï ÷øá áâãåìä àéï ÷øá á÷èðä
Answer #3: Our Mishnah [in Megilah] means as follows. The only difference between a Bamah Gedolah and a Bamah Ketanah is Pesachim. Anything brought for Neder or Nedavah that is offered on a Bamah Gedolah, is offered on a [Bamah] Ketanah. Anything not brought for Neder or Nedavah, which is not offered on a Gedolah, is not offered on a Ketanah.
åìà ðçú àìà ìôøù îä ùùååúä äâãåìä åä÷èðä àáì éù ðéãø åðéãá ùàéï ÷øá ìà áæå åìà áæå ëâåï îðçåú åðæéøåú
It comes to explain only what is the same about big and small, but there is something brought for Neder or Nedavah that is not offered on either, e.g. Menachos and Nezirus.
àáì ìðéãø åðéãá ãø''î àéï ìôøù ãìà àééøé áîðçåú åðæéøåú ãùôéø îéùúîò îìéùðà ãðéãá
Distinction: However, "what is brought for Neder or Nedavah" of R. Meir, we cannot explain that it does not discuss Menachos and Nezirus, for this is properly connoted from the expression "brought for Nedavah."
åòåã ã÷úðé ìä áäãéà áú''ë åëï ðøàä åãàé ìôøù ãàääéà ãúåøú ëäðéí ñîéê àò''â ãìà îééúé ìä ãáúîåøä îééúé ìä áô''á (ãó éã:)
Support: It is explicit in Toras Kohanim, and it surely seems to explain that [our Sugya] relies on the Toras Kohanim [to explain what R. Meir and R. Shimon argue about], even though [our Sugya] does not bring it, it is brought in Temurah (14b);
ãàîøé' äúí àîø ìéä àáéé åìéîà îø ùìîé ôñç ãàé ùìîé ðæéø ðéãø åðéãá äåà
We say there that Abaye said to [Rav Dimi] "you should say Shalmei Pesach, but not Shalmei Nazir, for it is brought for Neder or Nedavah;
ãäà úðéà æä äëìì ëì äðéãø åðéãá ÷øá ááîú éçéã åëì ùàéðå ðéãø åðéãá àéðå ÷øá ááîú éçéã åúðéà äîðçåú åðæéøåú ÷øéáåú ááîú éçéã ãáøé ø''î
A Beraisa says 'this is the Klal - anything brought for Neder or Nedavah may be offered on a Bamas Yachid, and anything not brought for Neder or Nedavah may not be offered on a Bamas Yachid, and a Beraisa teaches that Menachos and Nezirus are offered on a Bamas Yachid according to R. Meir!"
îùîò ãîääéà ãéé÷ åìà îìéùðà
Inference: He deduces from that [Beraisa], and not from the words [of R. Meir "what is brought for Neder or Nedavah"].
åîàï ãìà çùéá äúí ðæéøåú ðéãø åðéãá ÷îùðé ñîé îëàï ðæéøåú
Support: The one there who does not consider Nezirus to be offered through Neder or Nedavah, he answers "erase Nezirus from here."
TOSFOS DH v'Rabanan Menachos Ein Minchah b'Bamah l'Yachid
úåñôåú ã"ä åøáðï îðçåú àéï îðçä ááîä ìéçéã
(SUMMARY: Tosfos explains that the same applies to birds, and to a Bamas Tzibur.)
áéï ááîä âãåìä áéï ááîä ÷èðä ÷àîø ëãúðéà àéðê øáðï ëàï åëàï ìà ÷øáå (ðñëéí) ìéçéã àìà òåìä åùìîéí áìáã åàîøé' ãðñëéí àéëà áéðééäå åúå ìà
Explanation: This is whether on a Bamah Gedolah or Bamah Ketanah, like the other Rabanan taught in a Beraisa (117a) that on both of these, an individual offered only Olah and Shelamim, and we say (118a) that [Chachamim and the first Tana] argue only about Nesachim (whether or not they were offered in the Midbar.
åä''ä ãòåôåú ðîé ìà ÷øáå ìøáðï ëãàîøé' áñåó ôéø÷éï (ãó ÷éè.) ìãáøé äàåîø àéï îðçä ááîä àéï òåôåú ááîä î''è æáçéí åìà òåôåú æáçéí åìà îðçåú
The same applies to birds. They were not offered according to Rabanan, like we say below (119a) that according to the opinion that Minchah may not be offered on a Bamah, birds may not be offered on a Bamah. What is the reason? We expound "Zevachim" and not birds. "Zevachim" and not Menachos.
ãàå÷éîðà ääåà ÷øà ìòéì áøéù äùåçè (ãó ÷å:) á÷ãùéí ùä÷ãéùï áùòú äéúø äáîåú
We establish that verse above (106b) to discuss Kodshim that were Hukdash when Bamos were permitted.
åúéîä ãáîúðéúéï (äâäú öàï ÷ãùéí) (÷éâ.) úðï ø' éäåãä àåîø àéï îðçä ááîä åäëà ÷à''ø éäåãä ëì ùäöáåø åäéçéã î÷øéáéï áàäì îåòã ùáîãáø î÷øéáéï áàäì îåòã ùáâìâì
Question: In our Mishnah (113a), R. Yehudah teaches that a Minchah may not be offered on a Bamah, and here R. Yehudah says that whatever the Tzibur and an individual could offer in Ohel Mo'ed in the Midbar, they could offer in the Ohel Mo'ed in Gilgal;
åäøé îðçåú åòåôåú ãáâìâì ëàï åëàï ìà ÷øáå
In Gilgal, Menachos and birds were not offered on either [a Bamah Gedolah or Bamah Ketanah]!
åìà îéñúáø ìîéîø ãðäé ãìøáðï ëàï åëàï ìà ÷øáå ìø' éäåãä ÷øáå ááîä ìöáåø
Implied suggestion: According to Rabanan they were not offered on either, but according to R. Yehudah they were offered on a Bamas Tzibur.
ãîäéëé úéúé äê ãøùà ìîø åìîø
Rejection #1: What is the source for such a Drashah according to each of them?
åòåã à''ë ì÷îï ãôøéê çëîéí äééðå úðà ÷îà åîùðé ÷øáå ðñëéí áîãáø àéëà áéðééäå
Rejection #2: Below (118a), we ask that Chachamim and the first Tana do not argue, and answer that they argue about whether or not Nesachim were offered in the Midbar;
ìéîà ãîðçä ÷øéáä ááîú öáåø àéëà áéðééäå ãìøáðï ÷ãîàé ÷øáä åìáúøàé ìà ÷øáä
We should say that they argue about whether or not a Minchah may be offered on a Bamas Tzibur. According to the first Rabanan it is offered, and the latter say that it is not!
TOSFOS DH Machlokes b'Chatas v'Asham
úåñôåú ã"ä îçìå÷ú áçèàú åàùí
(SUMMARY: Tosfos explains that this refers to Korbanos Nezirus.)
áçèàú åàùí ùì ðæéøåú àééøé
Explanation: It discusses Chatas and Asham of Nezirus.
TOSFOS DH v'Ein Nohagin b'Bamah Ketanah
úåñôåú ã"ä åàéï ðåäâéï ááîä ÷èðä
(SUMMARY: Tosfos explains that this is because there is no Tenufah.)
ôé' á÷åðèøñ ãëúéá áäå ìäðéó úðåôä ìä'
Explanation (Rashi): This is because it says [about Chazah v'Shok and Terumas Lachmei Todah] "Lehanif Tenufah la'Shem."
åà''ú äøé îðçä ìú''÷ ãø' éäåãä ãîúðé' ãàéúà ááîä ÷èðä åàéï úðåôä åäâùä áä
Question: The first Tana [who argues with] R. Yehudah in the Beraisa (117a) hold that one may offer a Minchah on a Bamah Ketanah, and Tenufah and Hagashah do not apply to it;
åà''ë äðê ðîé ìéäåé ááîä åìà ìéáòé úðåôä
If so, also these (Chazah v'Shok and Terumas Lachmei Todah) can apply to a Bamah, and will not require Tenufah!
åéù ìåîø ãäðé çæä åùå÷ åúøåîú ìçîé úåãä òé÷ø îöåúï áúðåôä äìëê áèìä úðåôä áèìé àéðäå
Answer: Chazah v'Shok and Terumas Lachmei Todah, their primary Mitzvah is Tenufah. Therefore, if Tenufah cannot be done, they do not apply;
àáì îðçä òé÷ø îöåúä ÷îéöä åä÷èøä
However, the primary Mitzvah of a Minchah is Kemitzah and Haktarah.
TOSFOS DH Machlokes b'Olah u'Shelamim
úåñôåú ã"ä îçìå÷ú áòåìä (åàùí) [åùìîéí]
(SUMMARY: Tosfos explains that this refers to Korbanos Nezirus.)
ùì ðæéøåú ÷àîø
Explanation: This refers to [Olah and Shelamim] of Nezirus.
åúéîä ãîàï ãàîø ìà ÷øáå åàôé' ááîä âãåìä äéëé îùðé ÷øà ãàáùìåí ãëúéá (ùîåàì á èå) åàùìí ðãøé
Question: The one who says that they were not offered even on a Bamah Gedolah, how does he answer the verse of Avshalom "va'Ashalem Nidri"?
ãìéëà ìîéîø áùàø ðãøéí ãáôø÷ ùðé ãúîåøä (ãó éã:) îùîò ãàééøé á÷øáï ðæéøåú:
We cannot say that it discusses other Nedarim, for in Temurah (14b) it connotes that it discusses Korban Nezirus!