59b----------------------------------------59b

1)

REPLICAS OF THINGS IN THE MIKDASH [Makdish: replicas]

(a)

Gemara

1.

(Beraisa - R. Yehudah): "V'Shalosh Amos Komaso" - the simple understanding is correct (the outer Mizbe'ach was three Amos tall).

2.

R. Yosi: It says here "Ravu'a", like it says about Mizbe'ach ha'Zahav. Just like there the height (two Amos) was twice the length, also here (it was 10 Amos tall).

3.

62a (Beraisa): The length, width and height of the Mizbe'ach are not Me'akev.

4.

(R. Mani): However, they cannot be less than Moshe's Mizbe'ach.

5.

Avodah Zarah 43a (Mishnah): Raban Gamliel had forms of the moon on a tablet. He would ask witnesses which forms resembled what they saw.

6.

Question: "Lo Sa'asun Iti" - do not make things in the form of things that serve Me!

7.

Answer (Abaye): The Torah forbids only replicas that could be made in the same dimensions.

i.

(Beraisa): One may not build a house like the Heichal (i.e. with the same dimensions), an Achsadra (a building open in at least one direction) like the Ulam (the hall in front of the Heichal), a courtyard like the Azarah, or a table like the Shulchan in the Heichal;

ii.

One may to make a Menorah of any number of branches except for seven. It is forbidden to make seven from any metal;

iii.

R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah forbids even from wood, for the Chashmona'im made a wooden Menorah (the Yevanim had taken all the Kelim from the Mikdash).

iv.

Chachamim: No, they made an iron Menorah, and covered with tin. When they got richer, they made one of silver. When they got richer, they made one of gold.

8.

Question: Even replicas that cannot be made in the same dimensions are forbidden!

9.

(Beraisa): "Lo Sa'asun Iti" - do not make things in the form of those who serve Me above!

10.

Menachos 28a (Mishnah): The seven branches of the Menorah are Me'akev each other. The seven lamps are Me'akev each other.

11.

(Beraisa): "Gevi'eha Kaftoreha u'Fracheha" - the Menorah must have (forms of) cups, buttons and flowers only if it is made of gold.

12.

28b (Beraisa #2 - Rebbi): If a Keli Shares was made of wood it is Pasul;

13.

R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah is Machshir.

14.

(Shmuel): The Menorah was 18 Tefachim tall. It had 22 cups, 11 buttons and nine flowers. Each design is Me'akev itself and the others.

(b)

Rishonim

1.

Rif and Rosh (Avodah Zarah 18b and 3:5): One may not make a candelabra like the Menorah. One may make one of five, six or eight branches, but not of seven. This is forbidden even from other metals (than gold).

i.

Ran (DH Tanan): We first answered that the moon was permitted because only replicas in the same dimensions are forbidden, e.g. a house like the Heichal. If it is even a little bit more or less, it is permitted. A wooden Menorah of seven branches is permitted, because the Menorah in the Mikdash must be of metal.

2.

Rambam (Hilchos Beis ha'Bechirah 1:4): The future Beis ha'Mikdash that will be built, even though it is written in Yechezkeil, it is not explicit and explained. The people of Bayis Sheni in the days of Ezra built like Shlomo's Bayis, similar to what is explicit in Yechezkeil.

3.

Rambam (20): If rocks or beams were hewn initially for a Beis ha'Keneses, we may not build them for Har ha'Bayis.

4.

Rambam (2:17): The height of the Mizbe'ach is not Me'akev, as long as it is not less than three Amos, the height of the Mizbe'ach in the Midbar.

i.

Maharik (75): The Beraisa did not distinguish and say that a Menorah of seven branches is permitted of some materials. Rather, it is always forbidden, even if it is of wood according to the first Tana, or earthenware according to R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah. Surely it is a bigger Chidush to permit a Menorah of seven branches, even though its height is unlike the Menorah in the Mikdash, since it has the same form, than to permit a Menorah of five, six or eight branches, even if it is 18 Tefachim tall. Even in the Mikdash the height was not Me'akev. The verses do not give its height. There is a mere support from the Gematriya of "v'Zeh", which is 18. Therefore, it is not Me'akev. We learn from a Kal va'Chomer from the height of the Mizbe'ach. R. Yehudah and R. Yosi learn the height from verses, and even so it is not Me'akev. Also the Rambam says that the height of the Mizbe'ach is not Me'akev, and all the more so the height of the Menorah is not Me'akev. Surely one may not make a replica of it, even if it is not 18 Tefachim tall. Also, we forbid an Achsadra like the Ulam. Tosfos (Rosh Hashanah 24a DH Achsadra) says that even though the Ulam had four walls, and an Achsadra has only three, since the Ulam's opening is big and tall, it seems as if it has only three walls. This shows that a mere semblance is forbidden. It depends on appearance, even if it is not really like what was in the Mikdash. Surely, a Menorah of seven branches with (the form of) buttons and flowers like that of the Mikdash is forbidden. Rashi (43 DH Bayis) forbids house with the same length, width, height and openings as the Heichal. If he deviated a little, it is permitted. We can say that a house is different. If it is not exactly like the Mikdash, it is not recognizable that it is like the Mikdash. There are many big, tall houses! We cannot say so about a Menorah. Even if Rashi argues with Tosfos about an Achsadra, he could agree about the height of the Menorah. The dimensions and openings of the Heichal are explicit in verses. There is a mere support for the the Menorah's height. Even if Rashi argues with Tosfos, who will decide between them regarding an Isur Torah?! Surely it is forbidden even without buttons and flowers. There is no need for them on a Menorah not of gold. Surely, one may not make outside anything Kosher for the Mikdash. R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah proved that a wooden Menorah is Kosher from Beis Chashmonai, who made one. Why did Chachamim need to say that it was of iron (to reject his proof)? Why didn't they say that even though it is Kosher, this is not called 'the form of Shamashim (things used to serve Hash-m)', since it is not metal! The Ri of Korvil forbids a Menorah of seven branches even without cups. Surely, the same applies without buttons and flowers, for they are Me'akev each other. He mentioned cups because the Torah mentions them first.

(c)

Poskim

1.

Shulchan Aruch (YD 141:8): One may not build a house like the Heichal, an Achsadra like the Ulam, a courtyard like the Azarah, a table like the Shulchan, or a Menorah like the Menorah. One may make one of five or six or eight branches, but not seven, even from other metals, even without buttons and flowers and cups, even if it is not 18 Tefachim tall.

i.

Shach (33): If one deviated slightly, it is permitted.

ii.

Shach (35): A wooden Menorah is permitted, and all the more so a Menorah of Cheres (earthenware), like Rashi says This is why the Tur and Shulchan Aruch specify of metal.

iii.

Shach (36): It is forbidden without cups, etc., for this is not Me'akev. B'Di'eved, it is Kosher without buttons and cups, and if it is not 18 Tefachim tall.

iv.

R. Akiva Eiger: This connotes that if it is of gold, in which case buttons (and flowers and cups) are Me'akev, one may make it with seven branches, without the buttons. The Shach holds that the Shulchan Aruch forbids even without buttons, i.e. in the previous case mentioned, when it is of other metals. However, Tevu'os Shor forbids also if it is of gold.

v.

Pischei Teshuvah (15): It is difficult to say that the Shach means that since they are not Me'akev when it is of other metals, this is called Tavnis even when it is of gold and they are Me'akev.

vi.

Pischei Teshuvah (12): Tif'eres l'Moshe says that if a Nochri made for a Yisrael a house like the Heichal, or a Menorah or Shulchan like in the Mikdash, he may use it.

vii.

Beis Efrayim (OC 10): In Avodah Zarah, Rashi forbids a house like the Heichal only if it is similar in the dimensions and openings. In Menachos 28a DH Tavnis, he does not mention the openings. It is not clear which Heichal we discuss. In Bayis Rishon it was 30 Amos tall, and in Bayis Sheni it was 40 Amos tall. Do we learn from Bayis Rishon that also 30 Amos is Kosher? Perhaps we are concerned only for the dimensions of Bayis Sheni, which was built based on Nevi'im. Presumably, they expounded verses. However, surely Shlomo knew to expound something that is Me'akev! In Bayis Sheni, they found sources to widen the Mizbe'ach to 60 Amos if they want. The same applies to the height of the Heichal. The Rambam says that Bayis Sheni was built like Shlomo's Bayis, similar to what is explicit in Yechezkeil. If so, from then on only these dimensions are forbidden. However, this is wrong. Yechezkeil did not specify the height. Rashi says that the height is not explicit, just in Midos it says that the Heichal is 100 Amos tall. Tosfos Yom Tov says that perhaps the height of the future Bayis will not equal that of Bayis Sheni. Divrei ha'Yamim (3:4:4) says that the height of Bayis Rishon was 120. We do not know how high the Heichal itself was, and how high the Aliyos on top were. (Note: Rashi on that verse cites Melachim 1:6:2, which says that the Heichal was 30 tall!) Rashi in Avodah Zarah requires the openings to be the same. This connotes that it depends only on Bayis Sheni, for verses do not detail the size of the openings in Bayis Rishon. What is Rashi's source that it depends on Bayis Sheni? The Pnei Yehoshua says that the lower Beis ha'Mikdash corresponds to the higher Beis ha'Mikdash. Perhaps they saw the upper Heichal and Ulam - "Atem Re'isem." The Torah forbids making a semblance of it. Why is it forbidden even nowadays? Perhaps also after the Churban, it is a semblance of the Mikdash above. Bayis Sheni was made according to Nevi'im. Surely also above it was made that way. From then and onwards, this is what is forbidden. If we learn the Isur of a house like the Heichal from Lo Sa'asun Iti, after Bayis Sheni was built only those dimensions are forbidden. However, we concluded that Chachamim forbade everything similar to what is used for Hash-m, so even like Bayis Rishon is forbidden. We find that one may not make oil like Shemen ha'Mishchah, even after it was hidden. In Avodah Zarah Rashi explained the Hava Amina. In Menachos he explains based on the conclusion.

viii.

Beis Efrayim (OC 10): Why did the Rambam say that from Bayis Sheni we know what Bayis Shelishi will be like? He should say that it teaches us what is forbidden to make! In Megilah, R. Yitzchak permits offering nowadays in Beis Chonyo. If so, it should be permitted to make things like in the Mikdash, in order to offer! Do not say that we permit only what was made for Hash-m from the beginning. Megilah 14a says that they built Chulin, and afterwards make it Hekdesh! The Rambam rules like this. He also wrote that rocks or beams that were hewn initially for a Beis ha'Keneses may not be build into Har ha'Bayis. It seems that this is a mere stringency mid'Rabanan. R. Yitzchak holds that the Isur of a house like the Heichal is only when the Mikdash stands. We hold that the Isur is permanent, for the first Kedushah (of the Mikdash) was permanent. We could not say that Midos taught the dimensions of Bayis Sheni for the Isur of making things like in the Mikdash, for this would not suffice according to R. Yitzchak, who permits after the Churban. However, in Yoma 16a we say that R. Eliezer ben Yakov taught Maseches Midos, and in Zevachim 62a he permits offering Korbanos without a Mikdash, i.e. the first Kedushah was permanent. I say that the Rambam concluded that the Isur of making things similar to in the Mikdash is mid'Rabanan, due to fear of the Mikdash. He taught it with similar laws, e.g. one may not move his bowels facing east-west. Therefore, even like the first Mikdash is forbidden. The Ri me'Rotenburg forbids to make a house the same length and width as the Heichal. He omitted the height, for he holds that it is not Me'akev. We find that in Bayis Sheni, they changed the height. It seems that we are concerned for the dimensions of the interior. The thickness of the walls and cells (around the Heichal) is not Me'akev.

ix.

Pischei Teshuvah (14): Some people wanted to make a Menorah of seven branches with changes, e.g. six of them are in a circle, triangle or rectangle, and one in the middle. Bechor Shor (Rosh Hashanah 24) says that one must protest against them. The Isur of making things like in the Mikdash applies even if there are deviations that are not Me'akev. We do not find that the arrangement of the branches is Me'akev. Mishnas Chachamim (Hilchos Avodah Zarah p.64) leans to permit if they are in a circle, or if they are of candles, and not of oil. This is not necessarily true. One should be stringent about an Isur Torah.

See also:

HUMAN IMAGES (Avodah Zarah 42)

FORBIDDEN FORMS AND IMAGES (Avodah Zarah 43)

OTHER D.A.F. RESOURCES
ON THIS DAF