IS ZERIKAH EFFECTIVE FOR YOTZEI? (cont.)
(Rav Asi): Intent (for Pigul) takes effect on what was lost or burned.
Even though they are not present, intent takes effect on them (our text: as if they are present. All the more so Zerikah should take effect on Yotzei, since it is present).
Objection: Rav Asi contradicts what he himself taught!
Question (Rav Asi): Does intent Chutz li'Zemano take effect on "Nishpachim"? (Rashi - while pouring Shirayim on the Yesod he intended to eat meat Chutz li'Zemano; alternatively, during a previous Avodah he intended to pour Shirayim on the Yesod Chutz li'Zemano; Tosfos - he intended to collect blood that spilled from the bucket and sprinkle it Chutz li'Zemano.)
Version #1 (Tosfos) Answer (R. Zeira): You yourself taught us about Alal (the hard sinew of the neck);
Pigul does not take effect on it because it is unimportant. Likewise, intent should not take effect on Nishpachim, for it is unimportant (there is no obligation to collect it)!
Version #2 (Rashi) Answer (R. Zeira): You yourself taught us Alal (it joins with meat to comprise a Shi'ur for Tum'as Ochlim, but not to comprise a k'Zayis for Tum'as Nevelah);
It does not join for Tum'as Nevelah because it is unimportant. Likewise, intent should not take effect on Nishpachim, for (proper) Zerikah is not done with them! (end of Version #2)
Summation of Objection: Here (a), Rav Ashi says that intent takes effect on what was lost or burned, even though it is unimportant!
Answer (Rava): He means that intent takes effect on what will be lost or burned (Tosfos - it was falling into a fire at the time; Rashi - it just happened to get lost later. We do not say that retroactively, his intent was for something unimportant.)
(Rav Papa): R. Akiva holds that Zerikah takes effect if the meat was Yotzei, but not if the blood was Yotzei (and returned and thrown).
Support (Beraisa): If Shechitah was valid and the blood was Yotzei, even if it was returned and thrown, it has no effect;
Regarding Kodshei Kodashim, there is still Me'ilah. Regarding Kodshim Kalim, there is still no Me'ilah.
(Mishnah - R. Akiva): If one was Makdish (a Chatas, lost it, was Makdish another, then found the first and slaughtered both of them...)
(R. Elazar): R. Akiva discusses when both of them were slaughtered at the same time. (Rashi - this is literally true. Tosfos - Zerikah was not done until both were slaughtered.) If one was slaughtered first, he would not say that Zerikah helps for both.
(Beraisa - R. Shimon): I was asked if R. Akiva holds that Zerikah helps for Yotzei. I answered that he does;
R. Shimon's colleagues (to him): How can it be Meratzeh for something Pasul?!
R. Shimon told R. Akiva what his colleagues asked.
R. Akiva (to R. Shimon): Surely, you agree that Zerikah helps!
If one was Makdish a Chatas, lost it, was Makdish another, and then found the first, Me'ilah applies to both of them;
If both were slaughtered and Kabalah was done in two Kelim, Me'ilah applies to both animals;
If Zerikah of one of them was done, surely you agree that just like it exempts its own meat from Me'ilah, it also exempts the other animal's meat!
If it exempts another animal's meat from Me'ilah, even though the other animal is Pasul, all the more so, regarding Yotzei, Zerikah should exempt meat of the animal itself!
(Reish Lakish): R. Akiva's answer was deceptive!
("Both were slaughtered" connotes at the same time, but) since he holds that Zerikah helps for something Pasul, it should help even if they were slaughtered one after the other!
(R. Yochanan): His answer was proper!
If one was Makdish two Ashamos for Acharayus, and slaughtered both, and brought the Eimurim of one on the Mizbe'ach before Zerikah of either, surely you agree that (even if Zerikah of the other was done,) Yerdu (the Eimurim must be removed from the Mizbe'ach);
We would not say this if both were considered like one Korban!
(Ula): If Eimurei Kodshim Kalim were placed on the Mizbe'ach before Zerikah, Lo Yerdu (they are not removed). They became "food" of the Mizbe'ach.
Reish Lakish could not answer.
R. Yochanan: I have cut the feet of (refuted) the young one (Reish Lakish).
ZERIKAH CAUSES LENIENCIES AND STRINGENCIES
(Mishnah): Zerikah is Mekil and Machmir (cause leniencies and stringencies) regarding Kodshei Kodashim. Regarding Kodshim Kalim, it causes only stringencies:
Before Zerikah, Me'ilah applies to the Eimurim and meat of Kodshei Kodashim. After Zerikah, it applies only to the Eimurim, but not to the meat, and Pigul, Nosar and Tamei apply to both of them;
Zerikah is lenient (regarding Me'ilah in the meat) and stringent (regarding Pigul, Nosar and Tamei);
Before Zerikah, Me'ilah does not apply to the Eimurim or meat of Kodshim Kalim. After Zerikah, it applies to the Eimurim, but not to the meat, and Pigul, Nosar and Tamei apply to both of them;
Zerikah is only stringent (regarding the Eimurim, Pigul, Nosar and Tamei).
(Gemara - Mishnah): Me'ilah does not apply to meat (of Kodshei Kodashim after Zerikah).
Inference: Me'ilah does not apply, but there is an Isur (even for a Kohen to benefit from it).
Question: Why is it forbidden? It belongs to the Kohen (to eat)!
Answer: Really, it is permitted. It says "Me'ilah does not apply" for parallel structure with the Reisha, which says that Me'ilah applies.
Question (Seifa): Before Zerikah, Me'ilah does not apply to the Eimurim or meat of Kodshim Kalim. After Zerikah, it applies to the Eimurim, but not to the meat.
Inference: Me'ilah does not apply (to meat after Zerikah), but there is an Isur to benefit from it.
Why is this? It belongs to the owner (to eat)! (We cannot answer as above, for the Reisha of the Seifa says that Me'ilah does not apply to the Eimurim or meat before Zerikah, and there indeed it is forbidden. Presumably, the same applies to the Seifa of the Seifa!)
Answer (R. Chanina): The Seifa discusses (meat that was) Yotzei. It is like R. Akiva;
Version #1: R. Akiva holds that Zerikah takes effect on Yotzei regarding burning (Rashi - Ibur Tzurah (letting it become Nosar) is required; Pirush Kadmon (B) - it must be burned in the Azarah). It does not permit eating it.
Version #2 (Tosfos): R. Akiva holds that Zerikah takes effect on Yotzei (regarding Me'ilah, Pigul, Nosar and Tamei), but in any case it must be burned. It may not be eaten. (Tosfos Yom Tov - the Rambam forbids the meat only mid'Rabanan. It seems that most Meforshim forbid it mid'Oraisa.)