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Gitin Chart #2

Gitin Daf 10b-11a

MAY ONE COLLECT WITH A SHTAR WHICH WAS SIGNED
BY WITNESSES WHO ARE NOCHRIM?
  (A)
TANA KAMA & RABAN SHIMON BEN GAMLIEL(1) 		(B)
REBBI SHIMON
1) GET ISHAH & SHICHRUR EVED No(1) Yes(3), with Shemos Muvhakim
2) SHTAR KINYAN ANSWER #1:
Chachamim - Yes(4)
(Edim of Arka'os)

R. Akiva - Yes(6)
(even Hedyotos)

ANSWER #2: No(7)

Yes(5), with Shemos Muvhakim
3) SHTAR RE'AYAH Chachamim - Yes(8)
(Edim of Arka'os)

R. Akiva - Yes(6)
(even Hedyotos)

Chachamim - Yes(8)
(Edim of Arka'os)

R. Akiva - Yes(6)
(even Hedyotos)

==========
FOOTNOTES:
==========
(1) Raban Shimon ben Gamliel follows the view of the Tana Kama who argues with Rebbi Shimon and invalidates a Shtar with witnesses who are Nochrim, even according to Rebbi Elazar, and even when their names are Shemos Muvhakim. Nevertheless, he accepts such a Shtar when there are Edei Mesirah (since Edei Mesirah Kartei) in a place where Jews are not *allowed* to sign Shtaros. In such a place no one will mistakenly assume that the witnesses who signed are valid witnesses (as Rashi and Tosfos explain). (This seems to present a slight contradiction to what Rashi writes earlier (10b), that according to the conclusion, *everyone* agrees that Rebbi Elazar maintains that Edei Chasimah who are Nochrim are acceptable when they have Shemos Muvhakim.)
(2) The Chachamim who argue with Rebbi Shimon invalidate a Get Ishah signed by witnesses who are Nochrim, even when there are Edei Mesirah and even according to Rebbi Elazar, because the Get is "Mezuyaf mi'Tocho." That is, the Chachamim are concerned that one might assume that the witnesses who signed are valid witnesses and rely on them as Edei Mesirah for the Get. (See Rashi, beginning of 10a and end of 10b.) The Chachamim invalidate such a Get even when signed with *Shemos Muvhakim* of Nochrim (in which case one certainly will not think that they are Jewish), lest one accepts a Get with Shemos she'Einam Muvhakim, as the Gemara says earlier (beginning of 10a). (According to Rashi to 10b, DH Tani Chutz, the Tana Kama invalidates a Get signed by Nochrim because he follows the view of Rebbi Meir that Edei Chasimah Kartei. According to Rebbi Elazar, *everyone* agrees that a Get signed by Nochrim who have Shemos Muvhakim is valid with Edei Mesirah. See Insights to 11b.)
(3) Rebbi Shimon follows the view of Rebbi Elazar, that Edei Mesirah Kartei, and he permits Edei Chasimah who are Nochrim in a Get which has Edei Mesirah, for we do not rely at all on the Edei Chasimah who are Nochrim. However, when the Nochrim who signed have Shemos *she'Einam* Muvhakim the Get is not valid. This decree was made in order to prevent one from relying on those signatories as Edei Mesirah as well, thinking that they are valid witnesses. Since we do not rely on the Edei Chasimah at all, it makes no difference whether the signatures are those of Arka'os or those of Hedyotos; in either case the Get is valid (Rashi and Tosfos, 11a). (According to the RAMBAN, the Chachamim who argue with Rebbi Akiva *do* invalidate a Get signed by Hedyotos, even though there are Edei Mesirah Yisrael.)
(4) According to the first answer of the Gemara (10b), the Chachamim permit a Shtar Matanah that was signed by Arka'os, even without Edei Mesirah, because of "Dina d'Malchusa Dina." (If it was signed by Hedyotos, though, the Chachamim (who argue with Rebbi Akiva) do not accept it because of the concern that the Nochrim might lie.) The Gemara earlier (9b) follows this answer (Rashi to 9b, DH Kesherin, and Tosfos to 9b, DH Milsa). (The Rishonim discuss at length whether the second answer of the Gemara disagrees with the first with regard to the actual Halachah or only with regard to what the case of the Mishnah is, i.e. whether it refers to a place where there is any "Dina d'Malchusa" with regard to Shtaros.)
(5) See above, footnote 3. (According to the first answer of the Gemara (10b; see footnote 4), we rely on the Edei Chasimah who are Nochrim even *without* Edei Mesirah. Accordingly, the Chachamim who argue with Rebbi Akiva would hold that we cannot rely on them unless they are Arka'os (and not Hedyotos), as in footnote 8 below.)
(6) Rebbi Akiva accepts a Shtar Re'ayah even when signed by Nochrim *Hedyotos* (or a Shtar Matanah, according to the first answer of the Gemara (10b) which maintains that "Dina d'Malchusa Dina" applies to a Shtar Matanah). The obvious question, however, is how can we trust the testimony of Hedyotos? Perhaps they are lying! The RAMBAN answers that since it is the "Dina d'Malchusa" to rely on such testimony, the witnesses will not harm their reputation by lying. This seems to be the intention of Rashi as well. However, Tosfos explains that according to Rebbi Akiva, we indeed do *not* rely on the Hedyotos, but rather on Edei Mesirah who are Jews who witnessed the delivery of the Shtar and who read it at the time it was given. In such a situation, if the names of the Nochrim who signed the Shtar are Shemos Muvhakim, Rebbi Akiva maintains that the Shtar may be used to collect money while the Chachamim invalidate such a Shtar. Although there are Edei Mesirah, the Chachamim decreed that the Shtar is invalid when signed by Nochrim (and thus the debtor may claim that he paid back the loan, like in a case of a "Milveh Al Peh," a loan which was not written in a Shtar, as the TOSFOS RID writes). Their reasoning is that if we deem the Shtar signed by Hedyotos to be a valid Shtar based on the Edei Mesirah, perhaps one will come to rely on the signatures of the Hedyotos *without* Edei Mesirah, just as we rely on the signatures of *Arka'os* on Shtarei Mamon without Edei Mesirah.
(7) According to the second answer of the Gemara (10b), the Halachah of a Shtar Kinyan is the same as that of a Get Ishah and Shichrur Eved.
(8) For a Shtar Re'ayah, we rely on witnesses who are Nochrim because of "Dina d'Malchusa Dina" (10b), but only when those Nochrim are Arka'os who would not jeopardize their reputation by lying. We do not rely on Nochrim who are Hedyotos because their honesty is questionable. (Since we rely on the Edei Chasimah who are Nochrim and do not require Edei Mesirah, we rely on them even when their names are Shemos she'Einam Muvhakim, because everyone knows that we rely even on Nochrim for such testimony and no one will not think that the witnesses are Jews. This is implied by Tosfos to 11a, DH Lo Nechleku.)

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