More Discussions for this daf
1. One long Teki'ah serving as two 2. Two voices and mixed singing 3. From which end of the shofar do we blow?
4. Ein Kateigor Na'aseh Saneigor
DAF DISCUSSIONS - ROSH HASHANAH 27

robin stamler asked:

One of the hetarim for mixed singing is that two voices cannot be distinguished. Is this taken from Rosh Hashana 27, as the gemarah seems to conclude that two voices can indeed be distinguished? Or is there another source for this idea (and if so, where)?

robin stamler, london, england

The Kollel replies:

(1) The Gemara here answered that two voices from one person cannot be distinguished but two voices from two people can be distinguished. However the Gemara then challenged the statement that two voices from two people can be distinguished, from the Beraisa that two people should not translate the Torah. The Gemara concluded that the case of the Shofar and trumpets is similar to the case of Hallel and Megillah where one can hear all ten voices because this is "Chaviv" (well-liked) so a person pays attention. Therefore the conclusion of the Sugya is that one cannot distinguish two voices even from two people, unless it is Chaviv.

(2) OTZAR HaPOSKIM (vol. 9) EH 21:1 p.50 col. 2 #4 DH VE-KOL cites CHATAN SOFER (from the family of CHATAM SOFER, with M) who is in doubt if one is permitted to hear the voice of a man and woman singing together. Chatan Sofer writes that one could argue that since the female voice is Chaviv, a man will be sure to hear it even if she is singing with another man.

However CS refutes this argument because since we say that"Trei Kali Lo Mishtami" (two voices cannot be distinguished) this means he never hears the female voice and therefore cannot come to Chavivus. Here the Chavivus never starts. This is different to the case of ten people reading the Megillah where the listener knows what they are reading and because the Megillah is Chaviv for him he concentrates on hearing one of the people.

CS writes that according to the above reasoning one can answer the question of BE'ER SHEVA (cited by Otzar Haposkim just before, col. 1 #3 DH U-BE-KOL) on SHOFTIM 5:1 which says that Dvorah sang for the people. One can now say that since she sang together with Barak ben Avinoam, there were two voices which cannot be distinguished.

(3) However Otzar Haposkim (#4 DH ULAM) also cites BE'ER YEHUDAH who writes that it is clearly forbidden to hear a man and woman singing together. His proof is from RASHI here DH Y KORIN who writes that if ten people are reading the Megillah it is impossible that they shoud all be unison, but rather one is inevitably going to be behind and the other ahead. Therefore if not for the reason of Chaviv it would be impossible to understand anything from this chaotic noise. This is the meaning of Trei Kali Lo Mishtami. In contrast when people sing, they do so in harmony and one can recognize the female voice even though she is singing together with others and therefore it is forbidden to hear this. (See BACH to TUR OC 690:2 DH UM'SH VE-AFILU, cited by Beer Yehudah, who also explains Rashi in this way.)

(4) See Gemara Sotah 48a that when women sing and men answer this is as destructive as fire on flax. See also TESHUVAS AZ NIDBERU (9:59 , p.152) that even though there are Hetarim that two voices cannot be distinguished, nevertheless these are only to teach a merit for Klal Yisroel but it is not fitting for a Ben Torah to rely on these Lecatchilah.

Warm regards

Dovid Bloom