More Discussions for this daf
1. Reason for blowing the Shofar after the Churban 2. Two Days Of Rosh Hashanah 3. Beis Din on Shabbos and Yom Tov
4. Kilkilu b'Shir 5. Tamid 6. Shofar on Shabbos
7. Bais ha'Mikdash 8. Kiddush HaChodesh for Rosh HaShana 9. Beit Din Convening on Rosh Hashanah and Yovel
10. Korbanot of Rosh Hashanah 11. Kidush ha'Chodesh 12. Kidush ha'Chodesh After the Churban
13. ועוד זאת היתה ירושלים יתירה על יבנה
DAF DISCUSSIONS - ROSH HASHANAH 30

Shlomo Zalman Lerner asks:

Shalom,

When they were mekadash the chodesh al pi ri'iya, did they ever say Ya'aleh v'yavo, the preceding Ma'ariv, before any aidim may have come?

If not, did they ever say ya'aleh v'yavo in a ma'ariv prayer for Rosh Chodesh?

Why should we say ya'ale v'yavo for a two day Rosh Chodesh today. Is not only the second day, in fact Rosh Chodesh of the new month, and the preceding day is day 30 of the prior month?

If aidim came on the 29th day of the month, does bais din have the option not to mekabel the aidim, if they wish to make the preceding month maleh, and only mekabel them the next day?

Thank you very much. Also, if you know a sefer that deals with these concepts, kindly let me know about it.

Sincerely,

Shlomo Zalman

Happy Purim.

Shlomo Zalman Lerner, Atlanta, USA

The Kollel replies:

I have not seen anyone discussing this explicitly, but I will suggest answers to your questions based on logic.

1) On the night of Day 30 of the old month, they never said Ya'aleh v'Yavo. This is because Kidush ha'Chodesh is done only in the daytime (see Berachos 30b), so it is impossible to know yet on the night of the 30th that it is Rosh Chodesh. However, on the night of Day 31 (when there are 2 days of Rosh Chodesh), they always said Ya'aleh v'Yavo. This is because if the witnesses had already come on Day 30, then it is already Rosh Chodesh, and thus the next night and day are certainly Rosh Chodesh (see Rashi to Berachos 30b, DH b'Chodesh, that the night of the second day of Rosh Chodesh is considered a more complete Rosh Chodesh than the first night).

(It should be pointed out that the 2 days of Rosh Chodesh are not because of a doubt, as they also existed in the time of the Beis ha'Mikdash. This is stated by the Birkei Yosef (the Chida), Orach Chaim 427:1, in the name of the Teshuvos of the first Rabeinu Yeshayah of Trani (the Tosfos Rid).)

2) The aforementioned Rashi states that the second day Rosh Chodesh is a more complete Rosh Chodesh than the first day. This implies that the first day is also Rosh Chodesh, even though it is somewhat weaker than the first. It is Day 30 of the previous month, but it is also the start of the coming month.

3) The Gemara in Rosh Hashanah 20a (and Rashi there, DH Me'aymin) states that the witnesses who saw the moon on the 30th day may be threatened so that should keep quiet in order that the month will be made into one of 30 days. This requires explanation. See our Insights to Rosh Hashanah 20:2 ("The Moral Legitimacy of Judiciary Coercion").

The truth is that the entire topic deserves a more thorough treatment.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom

The Kollel adds:

A Talmid Chacham pointed out to me that what I wrote above (in 1), that on the night of Day 31 they always said Ya'aleh v'Yavo, might not be so simple. The question would be, what would one do if on Day 30 no witnesses had yet arrived? Even if they arrived on the night of Day 31, one can still not pronounce the new month on this night. The Mishnah (Rosh Hashana 24a) states that, according to the Tana Kama, even if the moon was not seen on the night of Day 30, one still needs to be Mekadesh the Chodesh. This can be done only on Day 31. Therefore, it can be argued that the night of Day 31 is not yet considered Rosh Chodesh. If so, it is logical that one cannot yet say Ya'aleh v'Yavo on the night of Day 31.

(We need to look carefully at the comments of the Ramban on the Rambam's Sefer ha'Mitzvos, Mitzvas Aseh #153:11. He writes that it is not essential, but only a Mitzvah l'Chatchilah, to say "Mekudash, Mekudash." However, it may be that this applies only according to Rebbi Elazar b'Rebbi Tzadok (Rosh Hashanah 24a), while according to the Tana Kama it is possible that if one is not Mekadesh the Chodesh, it is not considered Rosh Chodesh yet and one cannot say Ya'aleh v'Yavo.)

As we have noted already, this topic is not a simple one. To be able to understand it better one has to know what the status of the two days of Rosh Chodesh was at the time that they were Mekadesh Al Pi ha'Re'iyah.

1) A very important source is a verse that we say in the Haftarah whenever Rosh Chodesh falls only on a Sunday (Haftarah Machar Chodesh), from Shmuel I 20:27. We see in that chapter that the custom was to make a feast on Rosh Chodesh, and, in verse 27, we read about the "second Chodesh." Many commentaries explain that this refers to the second day of Rosh Chodesh, in the same way that we also have two days of Rosh Chodesh nowadays. This verse in fact is also cited by the Tosfos Rid which I mentioned in my first reply (in 1), that the two days of Rosh Chodesh are not because of a doubt, and that they existed also in the time of the Sanhedrin.

2) To explain this second day, the Teshuvos ha'Tashbatz (3:244) writes that in the same way that our custom is always to make Day 30 into Rosh Chodesh, so, too, in the time of the Prophets they always observed Day 30 as Rosh Chodesh, because the witnesses might come on Day 30. If they did not come on Day 30 they would be Mekadesh the month on Day 31.

3) We learn from this that the practice then also was to observe Day 30 as Rosh Chodesh every month. According to this, it would certainly appear that they said Ya'aleh v'Yavo on the night of Day 30. This is in opposition to what I wrote in my first answer (in 1).

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom

Shlomo Zalman Lerner asks:

Dear Reb Dovid,

Thank you again for the addendum. I greatly appreciate your taking the time to provide more insight into this question.

You may be interested to see another website which does not address this aspect, but rather the astronomical factors. The site is: kiddushhachodesh.com In the upper left hand corner of the page you may select Hebrew or English. There are about 3 or 4 segments.

I also found that in the Yachin and Boaz Mishnayos, in the Hakdama to Moed Alef, before Shabbos, there are sections which explain a variety of topics, one of which is Kiddush hachodesh. I think they are written by the Tiferes Yisroel, but I am not sure.

By the way, I began to wonder about this question at the beginning of this Adar. I was wondering when is it appropriate to increase Simcha for the month of Adar? Would it start on day 30 of Shvat or day one of Adar? I then became interested in learing more about the whole inyin of Kiddush Hachodesh, and I began to realize this was not a simple matter.

Thank you again and best regards.

Steve

Shlomo Zalman

The Kollel replies:

Shlomo Zalman, I think we are now in a good position, bs'd, to suggest an answer to the question about increasing Simchah on 30 Shevat. We know from the Book of Shmuel (according to the Birkei Yosef in the name of the Rid, and according to the Teshuvos ha'Tashbetz) that the custom was always to observe Day 30 as Rosh Chodesh, even in the time of Shaul, Yonasan, and David. So 30 Shevat would always be considered Rosh Chodesh Adar.

In addition, Rashi (Berachos 30b, DH b'Chodesh) writes that the second day of Rosh Chodesh is considered a more complete Rosh Chodesh than the first day. This again implies that Day 30 also possesses the status of Rosh Chodesh, even though Day 31 possesses a stronger status.

So one is perfectly entitled to be happy on the first day of Rosh Chodesh Adar! The Simchah should increase on the second day and continues into Adar itself!

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom