More Discussions for this daf
1. Counting by estimate 2. Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin 3. Beitzah of a Tereifah?
4. Heter Ochel Nefesh -- Gedarim 5. Machshirei Ochel Nefesh 6. Litra Ketzi'os
7. The Halachah concerning squeezing a lemon 8. Rashi 9. Hen and its eggs
10. Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin 11. Safek Egg 12. Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin
13. Yoshev u'Metzapeh 14. Safek Nolad
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BEITZAH 3

Aurel Lttmann asks:

I am now starting to learn Gemara Beitza and find Rav Shimon's machlokes with Rabbi Yehudah hard to understand - how much Yoshev Umetzapeh does Rav Shimon need and whether Rav Yehudah ever have Yoshev Umetzapeh. And, who do we pasken like? both?

Thank you,

Aurel Littmann, Brooklyn, NY, USA

The Kollel replies:

Dear Aurel,

Just as you began Meseches Beitzah may you also finish it.

It seems from the Braisa on Daf 30b that R' Yehudah and the Chachamim completely reject the idea of Yoshev u'Metzapeh. The Braisa says that even if the Sukah was shakey Erev Yom Tov and could conceivably fall down on Yom Tov, the Sechach is still considered Muktzeh. It also seems clear from that Braisa and the Gemara in Shabbos 44a that R' Shimon does not always say Yoshev u'Metzapeh. If the Sukah was solid on Erev Yom Tov then R' Shimon agrees that the Secahach is Muktzeh on Yom Tov. Similarly, when it comes to left over oil in a lamp, the Gemara (Shabbos 44a) says that R' Shimon only allows its use if the lamp was small and it was reasonable to expect it to go out on Shabbos.

Regarding the Halachah: see the Gemara Shabbos 157a (and Ri"f there) that rules that the Halachah follows R' Shimon in all areas of Muktzeh except Muktzeh Mechamas Isur. This is the Halachah for Shabbos. For Yom Tov, the Mechaber rules that the Halachah follows R' Yehudah and the Rem"a rules that Yom Tov is equivalent to Shabbos (OC 495:4).

Chag Sameach,

Yonasan Sigler

This is not a Psak Halachah

Aurel Littman asks further:

Thank you so much for your answer.

Without specific sources - I heard that Left-over oil - in the 'ner' on Shabbos is not like Rabbi Shimon - if that is the case - it is not a hard and fast rule - unless that too is a case of Muktzeh Machmas Issur?

Do we also pasken like Rav Yitzchok and Rav Yosef for Mashkin SheZovu/Peiros Shenoshrim? i.e. in a case where the eggs/peiros were not muktzah for some reason.

If I understand you correctly - if a truck hits a cow on Shabbos - Rav Shimon would not hold of mechatchin es ha'neveiloh lifnei kelovim? Since, there was no yoshev umetzapeh there.

(if so - why doesn't he specify the limitation in his psak?)

The Kollel replies:

Dear Aurel,

Regarding your first question: The leftover oil in the Ner is indeed a case of Muktzeh Mechamas Isur(Shabbos 157a, Shulchan Aruch OC 279:1).

Regarding your second question: Yes we pasken like Rav Yitzchak and Rav Yosef (Shulchan Aruch OC 320:1 and 322:3 respectively). There is both an Isur d'Rabbanan to drink the juice or eat the fruit and an Isur Tiltul because of Muktzeh. (It is essentially not possible that they wouldn't be Muktzeh because we're speaking about fruit that was on the tree at the beginning of Shabbos (if it fell off the tree before Shabbos then there is no Isur d'Rabbanan of Mashkin sh'Zavu and Peiros ha'Noshrim) therefore they are Muktzeh because by not picking them before Shabbos he shows that he is Maktzeh Da'as from them even according to R'Shimon (see Tosafos, Chulin 14a D"H Mechatchin)).

Regarding your third question: Seemingly so, however the Halachah in Shulchan Aruch (OC 324:7) is that any animal that dies on Shabbos is Mutar to chop up to feed to the dogs even if it was completely healthy. It seems that there is an element of Yoshev u'Metzapeh even on a completely healthy animal. In fact, though, the Eliya Rabba and the GR"A argue with the Shulchan Aruch and hold that only an animal that was sick before Shabbos is Mutar (Mishnah Berurah 324:17). (By the way, even though this should seemingly be a case of Muktzeh Mechamas Isur - there is an Isur of Shechitah on the animal Bein ha'Shemashos - the Halachah follows R'Shimon because the Halachah follows R'Yehudah only when the Isur was created by the person (Dachya b'Yadayim) as in the case of the Shemen in the Ner (see Tosafos, Shabbos 157a, D"H l'Bar)).

Kol Tuv,

Yonasan Sigler

This is not a Psak Halachah