More Discussions for this daf
1. Lulav on Shabbos d'Oraisa 2. Aravos 3. Lo Sisgodedu
4. ברכה על מנהג נביאים 5. טלטול בעלמא הוא
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SUKAH 44

David Goldman asks:

Isn't it correct to say that striking or shaking one to five aravas on Hoshana Rabba was a takkana from neviim only in the temple, so how did it become done in shul?

Secondly, is it possible to say that not taking the lulav on first day shabbos when there is a fixed calendar is because the first day turned into a derabbanan without the temple with the gezeyra of the other days by R. Yochanan ben Zakkai? Otherwise we are pushing off a deoraisa for a safek yoma even when we have a fixed calendar??

David Goldman, USA

The Kollel replies:

1) The Gemara on the top of 44b, according to Rashi there DH b'Mikdash and DH b'Gvulim, states that in the Beis Hamikdash taking the arava was a Halacha leMoshe miSinai, whilst outside the Beis Hamikdash it's source is from the Nevi'im.

2) The Gemara above, bottom 42b, states that the reason that lulav is not taken on the first day when this falls on Shabbos is because of a gezera that one might carry it 4 amos in Reshus Harabim. Therefore this also applies in Eretz Yisroel since it is not because of sfeika d'yoma.

Good Yomtov

Dovid

David Goldman asks:

Of course the sugya gets more complicated because the Yerushalmi doesn't even mention the gezeyra de-rabba (but forbids shofar on shabbos as an actual issur from the Torah), and the sugya in the Bavli explains that the gezeyra de-Raba doesn't apply to the first day d'oraisa, and in Bavel it had to do with safek yom of Rosh Chodesh, and even when the gemara ostensibly reverses itself contains the issur simply because of disputes, though does not establish its new position as an official gezeyra, and we don't know if and when anyone in EY actually complied by this.

This itself is unusual because Jews observe mitzvas in many different ways, shabbos times, wearing tefillin on chol hamoed, observing one or two days yomtov, Pesach seder, etc.. But of course we don't have a safek problem because we have a fixed calendar (as described by people like the Rashba, Rabbenu Yona etc. calling second day yomtov a "minhag.").

Of course the application is also different on Chanukah because it is only a derabannan holiday anyway and even Shofar as described above, although the Yerushalmi seems to supercede the Bavli because the Yerushalmi tells us that blowing on shabbos is actually prohibited d'oraisa. The question is why the Bavli doesn't mention this fact about shofar, which is so important, and doesn't have to come on to the gezeyra derabanan at all......and thus would really seem to only apply to Chanukah only. Or the blowing when there is no temple is itself actually just derabannan today.

The Kollel replies:

1) The Talmud Yerushalmi (Sukah, end of 4:1) tells us that Rebbi Simon commanded those who prepare the calendar to pay attention that the first day of Rosh Hashanah or the day of Arvata (Hoshanah Rabah) should not fall on Shabbos, so that the Mitzvah of Shofar or Aravah should not be lost. This suggests that the Talmud Yerushalmi also recognizes the prohibition of Aravah on Hoshanah Rabah on Shabbos. On the other hand, there is also an account in the Talmud Yerushalmi (Eruvin 3:9) of Rebbi Avahu going to Alexandria and telling them to take the Lulav on Shabbos.

2) Concerning d'Rabanan, the Ran in Megilah (3a of the pages of the Rif) writes that even if we would be experts about when the new moon occurs, we could still not read Megilas Esther on Shabbos, because Megilas Esther is only d'Rabanan.

3) I found something fascinating in the Gilyonei ha'Shas by Rav Yosef Engel zt'l on Maseches Rosh Hashanah (29b, DH Sham Kasuv Echad). He cites the Mishnas Chachamim by Rav Moshe Chagiz zt'l (#537-#540) who writes that the Gezeirah of Rabah existed already in the time of Moshe Rabeinu! (I would suggest a source for this from the Gemara in Shabbos 30a, which states that Moshe Rabeinu enacted several Gezeiros.) The Maharam Chagiz writes that this is the reason why Hash-m commanded Moshe Rabeinu to tell Bnei Yisrael in their first year in the wilderness that the first day of the seventh month will be a "remembrance of blowing" (Vayikra 23:24) because -- in the first year -- Rosh Hashanah fell on Shabbos, and since they did not yet have the Beis ha'Mikdash, they were allowed only to remember the blowing, not actually to blow.

4) This idea might enable us to narrow the gap between the Bavli and the Yerushalmi. We said that the Yerushalmi does not mention the Gezeirah of Rabah, but now we learn that the Gezeirah of Rabah was enacted a long, long time before Rabah. It also appears that a verse in the Torah can actually represent a Din which is not actually d'Oraisa, but rather a Din d'Rabanan which existed at the same time that the Torah was given.

5) And now, possibly, we can understand the Ba'al ha'Turim on Vayikra 23:24. He writes that on Shabbos it is only a "remembrance of the Teru'ah" because one does not blow the Shofar on Shabbos outside the Beis ha'Mikdash. We now may suggest that the Ba'al ha'Turim can be consistent with the Bavli and not only with the Yerushalmi.

6) A further comment concerning Chanukah: The Minchas Chinuch (301:6) writes that there is a difference between Chaunkah nowadays and the times when Rosh Chodesh was determined by witnesses coming to Beis Din and testifying that they had observed the new moon. In those days, in places which were too far away for the agents of Beis Din to arrive in time, they would observe nine days of Chanukah. Even though Chanukah is only mid'Rabanan and one would have thought that the rule, "If one has a doubt concerning a d'Rabanan one may be lenient," would apply, in practice one cannot say this. This is because the same doubt one has concerning the first day of Chanukah also exists concerning the ninth day of Chanukah. Therefore, if one does not observe the ninth day because of leniency concerning the doubt, one would also not observe the first day of Chanukah. One would end up keeping only eight days of Chanukah, which is clearly incorrect, and thus they used to observe nine days.

The Minchas Chinuch writes that, in contrast, nowadays we are expert about when the new moon occurs. While we have a Minhag to observe two days of Yom Tov, when it comes to Chanukah (which is entirely mid'Rabanan) we are not so concerned, which is why everyone in the world observes eight days of Chanukah now.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom

David Goldman asks:

Thank you. That is a bit of a chiddush about Chanukah. I never heard that they were machmir to keep 9 days (how many candles did they light during the week as the hiddur?).

Also, if the Gezeyra deRabba existed in history why is it not mentioned explicitly in the gemara, and why would it make a difference for Rosh Hashanah whether there was a Beis Din or not for blowing a shofar as enacted by R. Yochanan ben Zakkai?

And of course it impinges on the issue of a scroll for the haftara on shabbos (eys la'asos lashem....) in Gittin 60, and why this concept doesn't apply to shofar and at least to lulav before the fixed calendar.

It seemed from the narrative in the gemara that the minhag neviim for striking the hoshanas was an OFFICIAL minhag when the Temple existed, whereas after the chorban it isn't an officially sanctioned minhag, but only a hanhaga to remember that.

In any event, no Sanhedrin ever officially instructed that a minhag of a second day be rabbinically observed forever, otherwise R. Avahu and R. Shimon would have not simply suggested.

In any event it is mentioned by the talmid of the Rif, Rabbenu Zechariyah, that Jews in EY kept only one day Rosh Hashana for hundreds of years until the chachmei Provence changed it when they came in the 13th century. Certainly one cannot say (and no one did) that those Jews were doing aveyras on Yomtov for hundreds of years. Surely they were following legitimate psaks.

The Kollel replies:

1) I suggest that on the first eight days, they lit candles just like we do, but on the ninth day they only lit eight, since there clearly is no point lighting nine candles as everyone agrees that the miracle was only eight days.

2) It is mentioned explicitly in Sukah 42b, two lines from the bottom, "Amar Rabah Gezeirah...."

3) The Rambam (Hilchos Shofar 2:9) explains that the Beis Din warns the people and tells them not to carry the Shofar in the public domain on Shabbos.

4) In Gitin 60a there is a different problem. One is not allowed to put into writing less than a complete book of the Prophets, so the question is how was it permissible to own a book of the Haftaros, which are only excerpts from the Nevi'im?

5) In the time of the Beis ha'Mikdash, the Aravah was taken all seven days in the Beis ha'Mikdash. After the Churban, Chazal made a Takanah that it should be taken on Hoshanah Rabah as a remembrance of the Beis ha'Mikdash.

6)

a. Even if the Sanhedrin never instructed that a Minhag of second day Yom Tov be observed forever, it is nevertheless binding. This is because the Gemara in Beitzah (end of 4b) asks that, nowadays, since we are expert at fixing the new month, why do we keep two days Yom Tov? The Gemara answers that this is because a directive was sent to "be careful concerning the custom of your fathers" to keep two days.

b. The Rambam, near the end of his Introduction to Yad ha'Chazakah (DH u'Devarim Halalu), writes that all the Jewish people are required to carry out everything mentioned in the Babylonian Talmud. Every community is required to follow all the Minhagim mentioned in the Talmud. Therefore, even if something is not a decree of the Sanhedrin, it is still binding as a Minhag of the Talmud.

7) David, what you mention above in the name of Rabeinu Zecharyah should no doubt read "Rabeinu Zerachyah," referring to Rabeinu Zerachyah Halevi, also known as the "Ba'al ha'Me'or," the author of "Ha'Me'or ha'Gadol" and "Ha'Me'or ha'Katan," which are printed with the Rif in most standard editions of the Gemara.

The reference is to the Rif in Beitzah 3a (of the pages of the Rif) who writes that those who live in Eretz Yisrael must observe two days of Rosh Hashanah. Rabeinu Zerachyah was not a Talmid of the Rif, and in fact lived considerably after him. However, he wrote a Sefer on the Rif. In Beitzah 3a, the Ba'al ha'Me'or writes that the custom in Eretz Yisrael was always to observe only one day of Rosh Hashanah, until the Chochmei Provence came in the times of the Ba'al ha'Me'or and changed the custom to conform with the Rif's opinion.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom

David Goldman asks:

Thank you. That is a bit of a chiddush about Chanukah. I never heard that they were machmir to keep 9 days (how many candles did they light during the week as the hiddur?).

Also, if the Gezeyra deRabba existed in history why is it not mentioned explicitly in the gemara, and why would it make a difference for Rosh Hashanah whether there was a Beis Din or not for blowing a shofar as enacted by R. Yochanan ben Zakkai?

And of course it impinges on the issue of a scroll for the haftara on shabbos (eys la'asos lashem....) in Gittin 60, and why this concept doesn't apply to shofar and at least to lulav before the fixed calendar.

It seemed from the narrative in the gemara that the minhag neviim for striking the hoshanas was an OFFICIAL minhag when the Temple existed, whereas after the chorban it isn't an officially sanctioned minhag, but only a hanhaga to remember that.

In any event, no Sanhedrin ever officially instructed that a minhag of a second day be rabbinically observed forever, otherwise R. Avahu and R. Shimon would have not simply suggested.

In any event it is mentioned by the talmid of the Rif, Rabbenu Zechariyah, that Jews in EY kept only one day Rosh Hashana for hundreds of years until the chachmei Provence changed it when they came in the 13th century. Certainly one cannot say (and no one did) that those Jews were doing aveyras on Yomtov for hundreds of years. Surely they were following legitimate psaks.

The Kollel replies:

1) I suggest that on the first 8 days they lit candles just like we do, but on the ninth day they only lit eight, since there clearly is no point lighting 9 candles as everyone agrees that the miracle was only 8 days.

2) It is mentioned explicitly in Sukah 42b, two lines from the bottom; "Amar Rabba Gezeyra".

3) The Rambam Hilchos Shofar 2:9 explains that the Beis Din warn the people and tell them not to carry the Shofar in the public domain on Shabbos.

4) In Gitin 60a there is a different problem. One is not allowed to write down less than a complete book of the Prophets, so the question is how was it permissible to own a book of the Haftoros, which are only excerpts from the Nevi'im.

5) In the time of the Beis Hamikdash the Arava was taken all 7 days in the Beis Hamikdash. After the destruction, Chazal made a takona that it should be taken on Hoshana Rabah as a remembrance of the Beis Hamikdash.

Kol Tuv

Dovid Bloom