More Discussions for this daf
1. Ladders 2. The Agadeta on Shlomo ha'Melech 3. Tefilas Arvis
4. Pidyon Haben 5. Aruch La'Ner on Pikuach Nefesh 6. 53a Hillel
7. ורבנן מאי טעמייהו

Don Emanuel asked:

a) Where was the step ladder that was used to fill up the menoros kept during the year?

b) Why does rashi use nach instead of bereishis for the proof of keida ie vayikdu vayishtachavu?

menachem new york

The Kollel replies:

a) Step ladder! Which step-ladder? I suppose you are referring to the four ladders leading up to the four lamps referred to in the Mishnah.

Presumably, the size bothers you, though I am not sure what makes you think that they were not dismantled after Succos, in which case they could be stored anywhere.

Even according to your premise, however, I can think of three possible explanations. Perhaps they

1. remained standing throughout the year.

2. were stored in a warehouse somewhere in Yerushalayim.

3. were chopped up and used as firewood.

b) By 'Kesuvim', Rashi probably means (not Kesuvim, as opposed to Torah and Nevi'im, but) 'Pesukim', which he uses here because there are four or five Pesukim which contain the word in question.

Nice to hear from you, especially in this context.

Be'Virchas Kol Tuv,

Eliezer Chrysler

Don Emanuel responds:

are we saying that avrohom ovinu did the keida as per rabi shimon? otherwise what is vayiikdu vayishtachavu?

The Kollel replies:

No, Avraham didn't perform Kidah at all, as these words are only mentioned in Chumash regarding Yosef's brothers (Bereishis 43:31) and Klal Yisrael (Shemos 4:31 and 12:27), which Unkelus translates "u'Chera'u u'Segidu" (which appears to mean "and they knelt and they prostrated themselves"). Yonasan translates it as "ve'Gachanu u'Segidu", which is how he translates in all five places that these words occur (except for one, where he inexplicably switches to "u'Chera'u u'Segidu" [like Unklus]). I believe that "Gachan" means to bend (implying either bowing down or bending one's head, which is how both Rashi in Bereishis and Metzudas Tziyon in a couple of places translate it).

One more point. Yonasan translates "va'Yishtachavu" in Vayishlach (33:6,7 [where "va'Yikdu" does not appear]), using the same word ("ve'Gachanu") as he uses for "va'Yikdu" (in most places), and I assume that this is the word he uses for "va'Yishtachavu" whenever it appears on its own.

Be'Kitzur, when I wrote that "By Kesuvim, Rashi probably means (not Kesuvim, as opposed to Torah and Nevi'im, but) Pesukim", I had in mind that logically, either Kidah means this or it means that. Why should it have different meanings in different sections of Tanach?

In fact, Rashi himself explains that Kidah in Chumash means bending one's head, and I guess that this is how he will explain it in Kesuvim too (like the Metzudas Tziyon does).

Perhaps Rashi in Chumash assumes that "Lashon Torah Lechud, ve'Lashon Chachamim Lechud". In other words, Kidah throughout Tanach means bowing one's head, whereas the same word when used by the Chachamim, applies to the acrobatics described in the Gemara.

be'Virchas Kol Tuv.

Eliezer Chrysler