More Discussions for this daf
1. Ezras Nashim 2. Answering Amen in the Shul of Alexandria 3. Enjoying the Show
4. Yonah ha'Navi and Simchas Beis ha'Sho'evah 5. Yonah Ha'Navi and Simchas Beis Ha'Sho'evah 6. Recessed Rows of Stones in the Beis ha'Mikdash
7. Yerushalmi vs. Bavli 8. עזרת נשים 9. רש״י ד״ה באבוקות של אור
10. רש״י ד״ה באבוקות של אור
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SUKAH 51

Jack Walfish asks:

On daf 51a the Gemara rejects the opinion of Rav Yosef (50b) who says the Braysa (8 lines down) "Hachalil etc" Machalokes Rav Yosi bar Yehuda and Rabbanan, refers to the Chalil of Korban. The Gemara rules in favor of Rav Yirmiah bar Abba who holds that it refers to the Shir (meaning Chalil) of Shoeivah, based on a Braysa which clearly states it is Shir shel Shoeivah.

However the Yerushalmi here immediately following the first Mishna (Perek 5) brings another Braysa with the same Machalokes on Chalil (using the word Chalil rather than shir) shel Korban, exactly as Rav Yosef interprets it. In fact the opinion of Rav Yirmiya Bar Abba is not even mentioned. It would therefore seem likely that somewhere along the line Rav Yosef had a Masores for this Braysah in support his opinion and maybe should not be so outright rejected as Teyuvta D'Rav Yosef Teyuvta.

It would seem the Bavli did not know of this other Braysa. In any case, if I am missing or misinterpreting something here, please let me know. Would certainly be interested to know if anyone discusses this.

The best,

Jack, KGH New York

The Kollel replies:

This question is asked by the Yefeh Einayim on 50b DH Machlokes (printed at the back of the Gemara). He writes that according to the Yerushalmi one has to say that the text in the braysa, cited here on 51a, does not include the words "Shir Shel Shoeva".

Good Yomtov

Dovid Bloom

The Kollel adds:

I would like to suggest a different answer to this question.

1) I want to argue that the Yerushalmi understood that the crucial point here is which braisa is the most reliable. Now we generally assume that the Tosefta is a very reliable collection of Braisos. The source for this is Chuliin end 141a-b that any braisa that was not taught in the house of Rabbi Chiya and Rabbi Oshaya is not reliable and see Rashi Bava Metzia 85b DH Masn' deMar that Rabbi Chiya arranged the Tosefta.

2) The dilemma in our sugya is does one play the Chalil of Shoevah on Shabbos according to Rav Yosi bar Yehuda, or only the Chalil of korban. The Yerushalmi wanted to resolve this issue from the words of the Tosefta, but the Tosefta Sukah 4:8 only states that Chalil overrides Shabbos according to R. Yosi, but does not state whether this refers to the Chalil of korban or Chalil of Shoevah. However if we look at Tosefta Erchin 1:6 we see the same opinion of R. Yosi; that the Chalil overrides Shabbos. But the Tosefta Erchin cannot be referring to Simchas Beis Hashoeva, since Maseches Erchin is not the place to give Halachos about the Shoevah, which are only relevent to Sukos. Whilst Tosefta Sukah can be discussing both the chalil of the korbanos on Sukos and the Shoevah on Sukos, Maseches Archin only discusses Halachos which aplly all year round in the Beis Hamikdash. This is how the Yerushlami knew that it is only the chalil of korban that overrides Shabbos according to R. Yosi. We learn from Tosefta Archin that when the braisa uses the word "HeChalil" this is referring to the Chalil of korban and this is why the Yerushalmi at the beginning of 5th chapter of Sukah, uses the words "Chalil Shel Korban".

3) It therefore follows that the briasa cited on Bavli 51a, about Shir Shel Shoevah, is not considered reliable by the Yerushalmi, since the Yerushalmi learnt that everyone agrees that it is only the Chalil of Korban that overrides Shabbos. Since Chulin top 141b states that if a braisa was not stated in the house of Rav Chiya and Rav Oshaya, one cannot a question from it, the Yerushalmi understood that the Braisa cited by Bavli 51a as a support to Rav Yirmiah, cannot in fact be relied upon.

I found further support for above.

a) If we look at the very beginning of our sugya in the Yerushalmi, we will see why the braisa cited by Bavli 51a cannot be considered reliable by the Yerushalmi. The Mishnah states "This is the chalil of Beis Hashoevah that does not override Shabbos or Yomtov". The Yerushalmi immediately makes the diyuk that this implies that the chalil of the korban does override Shabbos and Yomtov. The Yerushalmi states that our Mishnah must therefore follow the opinion of R. Yosi.

b) Tosfos 50b DH veRabanan writes that Rav Yosef (whose position is very similar to that of the Yerushalmi as you have correctly pointed out, Jack) will say that the Mishnayos in Eruvin 102b and Erchin 10a follow the opinion of R. Yosi bar Yehudah. We can now add to this that the Yerushalmi states that our Mishnah in Sukah also follows R. Yosi.

c) The reason that the Yerushalmi made the diyuk that our Mishnah follows R. Yosi is because it was relying on the Tosefta in Erchin which states that according to R. Yosi chalil overrides Shabbos, and the Yerushalmi learnt that this must be referring to chalil of korban, since the Tosefta in Erchin would have no reason to discuss Beis Hashoevah. Our Mishnah cannot be Rabanan, because Rabanan hold that chalil of korban is not docheh Shabbos.

d) Since the Yerushalmi has proved from strong diyukim in our Mishnah, and in the Tosefta in 2 places, that our Mishnah follows R. Yosi this means that according to R. Yosi the chalil of Shoevah is not docheh Shabbos. It therefore follows that the Beraisa the Bavli 51a cites; that according to R. Yosi the chalil of Shoevah is docheh Shabbos; cannot be considered reliable by the Yerushalmi.

Dovid Bloom

The Kollel adds further:

I found that I was mekaven bs'd, to a certain extent, to the way one of the important Mefarshim on the Yerushalmi; the Mareh Hapanim; printed in many standard editions, explains the sugya. In some editions of the Yerushalmi, the Mareh Hapanim is printed on the page of the Gemara, and in some editions at the back of the Gemara.

1) He starts by examining the text of the Tosefta, and writes that it states explicitly "Chalil Shel Korban".

Now, in our text of the Tosefta here 4:8, it does not state "Chalil Shel Korban" but simply "HaChalil Docheh Es HaShabbos..." without the word "korban". It seems that the Mareh Hapanim possessed a different girsa in the Tosefta than we have. [However I was happy to see this, since I had suggested that the Tosefta refers to Chalil Shel Korban, even though according to our girsa it does not state this explicitly, whilst the Yerushalmi does state explicitly Chalil Shel Korban]

2) Mareh Hapanim continues and writes that the Bavli cites a beraisa which states simply "The Chalil is docheh Shabbos; these are the words of Rabbi Yosi beRebbe Yehudah".

He must be referring to the beraisa cited on 51a, but he does not possess the text that we have. In fact he seems to have a similar girsa to that suggested by the Yefeh Einayim; that I cited in my very first reply; that the text of the Yerushalmi in this beraisa does not include the words "Shir Shel Shoevah".

We do see that there are different texts in the sugya and this must make a big difference to the pshat.

A gezunter Winter

Dovid Bloom