More Discussions for this daf
1. Getting into tight spaces 2. The hidden ark 3. Two ways of reading it?
4. Placing the Machatah between the Badim 5. Strings attached 6. Light in the Holy of Holies
7. Rashi on the Ulam
DAF DISCUSSIONS - YOMA 52

Noson Munk asked:

In the mishna on daf 52b and again 53b is mentioned that the Kohen Godol places the machto and ketores between the badim. Since the badim touched the poroiches he could not possibly position himself between them. He probably didn't jump over one of them or crowled beneath one since he was holding the burning gacholim in the machto with one hand and the ketoires in the caf in the other hand .The gemara even says that the badim left an impression on the poroiches which was visible from the other side ( in the mishkan only, since there was no Aron in the Bais Sheini.) So how did the Kohen Gadol manage to place and mix the ketores and gacholim,in the mishkon and the first mikdosh, the hardest avoido, in a place, between the badim, which he could not reach ?

The Kollel replies:

I have not found anyone who specifically addresses your question. However, the Rosh quotes a Gemara Yerushalmi that says that in the second Beis ha'Mikdash, when the Kohen Gadol walked between the two curtains he would push them apart with his elbows (his hands being otherwise occupied holding the Kaf and Machta). This was because the space between the curtains was only an amah and we were afraid that they would catch fire if they were accidentally touched by the burning coals.

This being the case, I see no reason not to further apply this idea and say that in order to reach the space in front of the Aron the Kohen Gadol would push aside the curtain with his elbows and pass the Badim.

Be well,

Dovid Schloss

Noson Munk responded:

Dear Rav Dovid Schloss,

You may be correct that the Kohen Gadol could have pushed the curtain to get between the badim but , when I asked the question I was not aware of the gemara that says that during the Bais Rishon there was a curtain in the center of the wall. That poroiches was the entrance of the Kodesh Hakodoshim. If so, when the Kohen Gadol entered he found himself immediadely between the badim, who were touching that curtain. He didn't have to manipulate his way whatesoever.

The Kollel replies:

For the answer, please refer to what we wrote in yoma-052.4c1.

Yaakov Yehoshua Fischer commented:

Lekavod The Kollel:

Lecheura we dont have to answer that in the Bayis sheni, the second Beis HAmikdash as there was no Aron Kodesh in the second beis Hamikdosh as the Gemarah on 52b tells us K'bein Habadim (in the area that would have been in between the Badim). This Rosh and the Yerushalmi that the Kollol quotes is in the Bayis Sheni as in the Bayis Rishon there were no two Paroches only the one paroches that was immediately in front of the Aron Kodesh as we saw in the Gemarah on 54a Paroches Debavi (which was in front of the Aron so that the Badim could stick out and be visible from the outside). As far as the Yerushalmi we would have to understand what it means that he was dochef with his elbows because then how are we to understand what the Mishna on 43b says that the handle of the Machta was longer on Yom Kippur and Rashi quotes the gemara that the point was to assist in the carrying of the shovel; meaning that he had the handle under his arm to assist the carrying iof the shovel. According to the yerushalmi when he used his elbows to push away the curtains, the handle would no longer be under his arm so what was the point of the elongated handle?

However perhaps to answer the original question of how he entered the place between the Badim with loaded hands we can say that the same way that the Kodesh Hakodoshim was held open in the Bayis Sheni accoring to R' Yosi who holds that there was only one Paroches in Bayis Sheni and the problem of not being Derech Eretz to look in is no problem on Yom Kippur because Klal Yisroel is beloved that they can come right in (however you learn the belovedness is reflected , Rashi or Tosafos Yishanim) and being that there was a curtain in front of the Doorway even in Bayis Rishon as we know from the Gemarah we can say that this one curtain was also "Paruf" as rashi explains on daf 52b, so as to be Pasuach Veomedes To stay open. Therefore On Yom Kippur when there was an Aron (Bayis Rishon) he walked straight in to the Kodesh Hakadoshim without having to push any paroches out of the way and he was automaticaly in between the badim. The issue of coming from the north as mentioned in the Mishna was only in the second Bayis with no Aron.

Kol Tuv

Yaakov Yehoshua Fischer

PS. Is there a backlog on responses to the questions as I have not yet heard from the kollel on various issues. Kol Tuv.

The Kollel replies:

Perhaps you are correct in how the entering of the Kohain Gadol into the Kodesh Hakedashim during Bayis Rishon was accomplished. However Noson Munk was asking his question by the Mishkan. There, everyybody agrees there was only one curtain which opened on the side.

D. Schloss

Mark Bergman commented:

I think we need to clarify which Beis HaMikdosh we are referring to.

In the Bayis Rishon, the Oron was present, but there was a wall (Ama Traksin) in front of the Kodesh Kodashim (not two curtains). My understanding is that the opening into the Kodesh Kodashim (in front of which was a Poroches for Tznius) was in the centre of the this wall. Therefore, I presume that the Kohen Godol would go through this opening and would then be between the Badim.

In the Bayis Sheini, there were two curtains (according to some Tanoim) but once the Kohen Godol came into the Kodesh Kodoshim there was no Oron to manoever.

Kol Tuv

Mark Bergman

Manchester, UK

The Kollel replies:

I would agree with your understanding of what took place in the Bayis Rishon and Sheini. However, R' Noson Munk's question would still be valid in the case of the Mishkan. By the Mishkan there was one curtain which opened at the side, and the Aron was present. This was what the Kollel's answer was addressing.

D. Schloss