What would be if the first kohain gadol became tumah and we were to be memaneh b'peh the deputy and then he too became tumah and we chose a third, would the second one be able to be maridin?
The Igros Moshe (C.M. 1:45) states that when Tosfos (DH "Kohen Gadol") says a Kohen Gadol is Mismaneh b'Peh, it cannot mean without Avodah or Ribuy Begadim, as our Gemara clearly stated earlier that these are needed to become a Kohen Gadol. This indicates that there would not even be any Eivah, as the process of becoming Kohen Gadol is really not completed until he acts as the Kohen Gadol. [The Igros Moshe writes that the only reason Tosfos even mentioned "Mismaneh b'Peh" (instead of only mentioning Mistalek b'Peh) is to tell us that in a case where he is appointed by a king, he can also be demoted b'Peh; see Teshuvah at length.]
Kol Tuv,
Yaakov Montrose
See Rashash on this Daf - he brings a drash from Toras Kohanim on the words of "V'chiper Hakohen" (the beginning of the Pasuk of Asher Yimshach V'asher Yimalei) that you can become a Kohen Gadol without Avodah or Ribuy Begadim.
Moshe
Although I understand that this sounds like the intent of the Toras Kohanim, I don't think that this is the correct explanation for many reasons. One, as Rav Moshe zt"l stated, the Sugya seems to clearly exclude the possibility that Minuy b'Peh alone is enough, as it did not give this as an answer. Secondly, after quoting this Toras Kohanim, the Rashash himself proceeds to ask a question on the Rambam who holds that merely putting on the Shemoneh Begadim without Avodah is enough to become the Kohen Gadol. If the Rashash just quoted the Toras Kohanim, why doesn't he answer that the Rambam saw a source for this approach in the Toras Kohanim? It therefore seems to me that the Derashah quoted by the Rashash is in fact telling us that not only a regular Kohen replacing a deceased Kohen Gadol can become Kohen Gadol through Meshichah or Ribuy Begadim alone (without Yom Echad), but even a Segan Kohen who is appointed while another Kohen Gadol is alive can become Kohen Gadol in this fashion.
b'Birkas ha'Torah,
Yaakov Montrose
(1) What if the deputy kohain gadol did the avodah because the first one became tumah and the first kohain gadol was returned to the job later and during the year the first one dies does the deputy automatically take over or the first one's son?
(2) Also if the deputy did the avodah as above do we use him again next yom kippur as the deputy?
(3) Also if the kohain gadol's wife died , why didn't they just use the deputy? It seem's much simpler.
Mendy kaplowitz
(1) The Chazon Yechezkel on the Tosefta (1:4) indeed says that the deputy takes precedence over the son. The Igros Moshe (C.M. 1:45) differentiates between the type of appointment done by the Melech, and that done by Sanhedrin which only afterwards receives the approval of the Melech. The type done by the Melech does not give the person the right to bequeath the Zechus to his son, while the type of appointment through Sanhedrin does give this Zechus (although R' Moshe is talking about the appointment of Kohanim Gedolim in general, the same would clearly hold true in this case based on his logic; see Teshuvah at length).
(2) The Gevuras Ari investigates this question, and concludes that he can be used the next year as the deputy. The Shmu'as Chayim says that although Tosfos in Nazir (47b DH "Merubah") disagrees, the Tosfos Yeshonim later (47a) and others share the opinion of the Gevuras Ari.
(3) What do you think the Kohen Gadol would say to that proposition? He'd probably reinforce his Zechus to ensure he can do the Avodah on Yom Kippur (the pinacle of Avodah and Kedushah) by marrying another wife, versus leaving open the possibility that he would not be able to do the Avodah. Being that one can only give good advice to someone, they advise the Kohen Gadol to marry another wife.
All the best,
Yaakov Montrose
Harav shlomo feival schustal asked why they didn't have to "train" the deputy kohain gadol for seven days? What would happen if he was needed to replace the kohain gadol, how would he know all the intricate detail? I would also ask, why didn't the pirchei kehuna also keep up the deputy all night so he shoudn't become tumah?
Mendy kaplowitz
(a) I do not see any reason to conclude that he was not trained. Since he was not busy throughout the year with other important duties and since he did not require mandatory Perishah for 7 days before Yom Kipur, his traning could be done any time (as opposed to the training of the Kohen Gadol).
(b) The replacement Kohen Gadol may not have stayed up because of the Sfek Sfeika type of logic - maybe he will not be needed, and if he is needed, perhaps he will not become Tamei in his sleep. (Besides, we can always appoint another one if he becomes Tamei.)
Be well,
Mordecai Kornfeld
I suspect that the Segan Kohein Gadol was like the Executive Vice President of a corp., lehavdil. He knew everything that was going on and was the resident expert in halachos, korbanos and procedures of the Bais hamikdash. He could have provided the training.
B'kavod,
Sam Kosofsky
I agree to that, Sam. However the person Mendy wanted to train was the standby Kohen Gadol for Yom Kipur. As we discussed once in this forum (See Discussion of the Daf for Yoma 2), this was not normally the Segan Kohen Gadol. According to what you pointed out, the Segan was probably too busy to be used as a standby Kohen Gadol for Yom Kipur - after all, even on Yom Kipur his administrative duties would be needed.
Be well,
Mordecai Kornfeld