More Discussions for this daf
1. Ketem on Tziv'onin 2. Shatnez 3. Og Melech ha'Bashan
4. זאת אומרת מצות בטלות לעתיד לבא
DAF DISCUSSIONS - NIDAH 61

David Goldman asked:

Gut Voch. I am very interested in understanding what it means when there are contradictory mesorahs in issues of fact (metsias) in Chazal. For example, we see that in Nidda 61 R. Shimon Bar Yochai states that the Palit was Og. Yet prior to him, in Pirkei de-Rebbe Eliezer ben Hyrkanus it states that the Palit was the angel Michael. Furthermore we see in the Midrash Tanchuma at the end of Chukas that Og Melech Ha-Bashan was at least 500 years old, whereas Moshe Rabbenu was exactly 120. However, IF he were the palit in the Flood he would have to have been at least 900 years old. Surely R. Shimon Bar Yochai knew this source as well....

Finally, we see in Chazal (Yalkut Shimoni or Reuveni) that Eliezer entered Gan Eden alive, and that he too was Og Melech Habashan.

So the question, "which is it"? And why didn't R. Shimon mention the other mesora, and vice versa? How do we understand this type of machlokes?

David Goldman, USA

The Kollel replies:

The commentaries commonly answer discrepancies in Agadah with the words 'Midrashim Chalukim Hem' ('the Midrashic sources differ on this matter'). Thus, it is quite clear that there is such a thing as conflicting Midrashim. Clearly, if the Angel Micha'el was the Palit, then it couldn't have been Og. Nor is there any reason to assume that the one Midrash could not have known about the other. It may well be that they did, only they had different Kabalos. Naturally, each Tana cites the Kabalah that he had (even if he was aware of opposing Midrashim).

You also query the Midrash Tanchuma, who gives Og's age as five hundred at the time of Moshe Rabeinu, so he could not have been the Palit from the Flood. The Tanchuma to which you are refering anyway explains the word "ha'Palit" in a different light (which has nothing to do with the flood, so that particular problem is solved. In fact, so does the Da'as Zekeinim, who names the Palit from Sedom as Micha'el (like the Pirkei de'Rebbi Eliezer). Incidentally, the Da'as Zekeinim at the end of Chukas, refers to the Palit from Sedom as Og, and he also cites the opinion in the Gemara in Nidah who equates him with the Palit from the Flood.

Finally, you ask from the Yalkut Shimoni, in whose opinion Eliezer, who went alive into Gan Eden, became Og Melech ha'Bashan. You do realize that your question is a direct Kashya on the Midrash Tanchuma, who appears to dispute the Torah itself, which describes Og Melech ha'Bashan's death!

Consequently, we have no option but to answer like the Da'as Zekeinim M.T. (Bereishis 24:39), who concludes that there must have been two Og Melech ha'Bashans.

Be'Virchas Kol Tuv

Eliezer Chrysler