Greetings, I am confused about something.
The idea of the 3-4-5 days of poletet zera are built into the ziva system for waiting those days before counting 7 more. Some rishonim hold that poletet zera does not interfere (soser yom) with the count, so I presume this was not definitive in the gemara itself for a ziva.
If so, then why should Jews have to be machmir to even worry about itespecially since it is not even definitive in the Talmud??
The nidda system counts 7 days from the BEGINNING of the bleeding.
The ziva system was originally supposed to be counting 7 days from the END of the bleeding (1, 2, 3, or whatever), and with the poletet zera requirement, the 7 days counting needs a MINIMUM in addition of 3-4-5 days.
So if there are rishonim are lenient on something which is NOT EVEN definitive in the Talmud, one would think that EVEN according to the stringent views, people could ignore the additional days of poletet zera, which may or may not be definitive medically and physiologically under the understanding of modern science.
David Goldman, USA
1) David, I do not understand what you wrote about the 3-4-5 days in the Zivah system, because the Din is that during the days of Zivah, if she sees on one day she becomes a Zavah Ketanah, and if she sees on the second day she remains a Zavah Ketanah, but if she sees again on the third day she becomes a Zavah Gedolah and must now count seven clean days, so possibly one should write 1-2-3-10.
2) I assume that the Rishonim you refer to is the Ra'avad cited by the Rosh (Nidah 4:1), who maintains that Poletes Zera discussed by Rami bar Chama (end of Nidah 33a) means only that she is not allowed to eat Taharos, but she is permitted to her husband. However, Tosfos (Nidah 33a, DH Ro'eh) learns that Rami bar Chama's question also refers to her Heter to her husband, so according to Tosfos this Din is definitve in the Talmud.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
I apologize, let me try to restate it. The additional days that were originally 3 for poletes shichvas zera are extended according to minhag to either 4 or even 5 days. This was not established by the gemara but by opinions of rishonim. According to RambaN and Raavad and others (I think geonim) the statement about poletes zera in the gemara does not refer to permission to be with the husband because she cannot be "gorem" tumah to her husband (perhaps also because eating korbanos involves food that is hekdesh and needs a higher level of purity?).
If that is so, why is it necessary to adopt MINHAGIM to be strict instead of making life easier and relying on the opinion of Raavad and others? I mean, if a woman did not observe the days of poletes zera and immersed does it mean relations with her husband are considered prohibited and liable for kares by following the lenient position?! Especially in view of modern medicine that discharging for three days does not happen? Indeed, the rishonim do not even provide any anecdotal evidence of how common it is medically for Jewish women to be discharging for 1-3 days.
Furthermore, on a related matter, nowadays with the fixed calendar women would not be mixed up about the monthly onset of their cycle and could keep track easily, so certainly there is every reason to argue that it would also make modern life much easier to restore the regular 7 day niddah period.
I was not aware that nowadays discharging for 3 days does not happen. Are there medical studies that confirm this? According to what you are saying, David, is there "Nishtanu Hatevaim"?
Chanukah Sameach
Dovid Bloom
I need to try to recall where I found mention of the unlikely possibility of leakage in three days according to gynecologists.
Would anyone say that a woman who toyveled in 7 days or fewer than the minhag was a Niddah for which she and her husband would be chayav kares?
And I wonder about the absence of any anecdotal information concerning actual cases about the there day polet in halachic sources.
Especially in light of alternative shitas of Raavad concerning the meaning of the gemara and "gorem".
1) If a woman is Toveles after fewer than seven days of becoming a Nidah, the Torah states, "She shall be a Nidah for seven days" (Vayikra 15:19), and she and her husband are Chayav Kares (Vayikra 18:19, Vayikra 18:29).
2) Issuing a Halachic ruling according to anecdotal information is problematic. The Gemara in Bava Basra 130b tells us that one cannot learn Halachah from an incident one observed until one's rebbi tells him what the Halachah is. Even more so, it would be very difficult to learn Halachah from the lack of anecdotal information.
Dovid Bloom
I am sorry, I wasn't clear again. I was referring to the seven clean days, meaning that if a woman did not comply with the minhag of observing the 7 clean days of a ziva should could not halachically be defined as a niddah and her husband could not be called a boyel niddah to be chayav kares.
All I mean regarding anecdotes is that in two cases we never find even a generic discussion anywhere as the actual effects of not performing metzitza, and how widespread it has ever been among the Jewish people for awoman to be polet zera for up to 3 days. Especially in light of the rishonim who say this has nothing to do with relations with one's husband because this tumah cannot be "gorem" but with eating korbanos.
And if with the clarity of following a fixed calendar a woman today followed the Torah rules, that would be sufficient, and yet this is never discussed (yet) except in the extreme cases of halachic infertility. It makes no sense.
1) I think you may be referring, David, to the Minhag mentioned by the Rema in Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 196:11, that if a woman had relations with her husband and then had bleeding, she waits seven days before starting her count. However, the Rema writes that there is no logic behind this Chumra.
2) The Gemara (Shabbos 133b) states that if a Mohel does not perform Metzitzah, this constitues a danger and the Mohel is dismissed. The discussion nowadays is that it may be more dangerous to perform Metzitzah than not to perform it (although, as far as I know, that is only when Metzitzah is done with the mouth, but if done with an instrument, I do not think anyone says this is actually dangerous).
Chazal do not usually support their scientific statements with scientific proofs, but they had a tradition that Milah without Metzitzah poses a health hazard.
3) While some argue that doing oral Metzitzah nowadays is a Sakanah, I have not seen any evidence so far that women nowadays are not Polet Zera up to three days. Often things are not well known by the doctors, because it does not make a significant difference to medical treatment, but this does not mean that the phenomena do not exist.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom