More Discussions for this daf
1. Kol ha'Yad 2. mens underwear 3. Dam Nidah
4. Cervix 5. Hargashah 6. Hargashah
7. Text of the Mishnah 8. Underwear 9. Source (Azharah) for the Isur
10. mens underwear 11. wasting seed 12. Rivkah's early pregnancy
13. Bedikah 14. Bedikah for Zov 15. יהרג ואל יעבור
DAF DISCUSSIONS - NIDAH 13

ALAN ROSS asks:

Why when the cervix opens doesnt all the blood come out at once. I have seen the pardes rimonim brought in artscroll who says it is a miracle.

http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8279&st=&pgnum=55&hilite=

Is there any better modern explanation for it.

ALAN ROSS, United Kingdom

The Kollel replies:

I quote from a medical text on menstruation:

"Menstruation works through a complex hormonal interaction between the brain, ovaries, and the uterus. Position does not affect any of these structures nor their hormonal signaling.

Menstrual blood is expelled from the uterus through uterine contractions. These contractions are not affected by gravity or changes in body position. Even in space (where there is zero gravity) menstruation remains unaffected."

If I understood correctly, it is not the cervix opening and blood falling out but rather like a sponge which is squeezed from the back and each squeeze (contraction) releases some blood which is in the sponge. This would not depend on gravity at all.

Yoel Domb

Alan Ross asks:

Thanks for your replies.

When a man does intercourse, I understand that some of his semen goes through the cervix although it is only 3mm wide into the womb and up the fallopian tubes. From rashi and artscroll it seems that almost all of it goes there. I find this hard to believe. That is why she can be poletes for three days. It is hard to understand that this can all come out if she walks about through a 3mm area.

. I also dont understand how a woman who is mezane stops the semen going to the fallopian tube. If it is like an arrow, how can she stop it. And once it gets there how can she turn it back.

The gemoro says that a woman can tell if her husband semen is like an arrow. How does she do this. Is it because if it isnt it wont get through the cervix, and she can tell if it reaches the womb.

I understand that menstrual blood is something like red milk. Even though we pasken it doesnt turn into milk. If not the baby would not be able to grow from it. Normal blood is not healthy. So I am sure that today any doctor would be able to tell the difference between dam from a makka or from mensturation. I wonder if this in any way accepted in halacha. Also the gemoro says one can smell the difference between dam chimud and other dam. Dam chimud is a machlokes if it is tomai. I am interested to know if it also has proteins like dam niddah. I am sure it is not like dam makka according to everyone.

A well known question and i wonder if you have an answer. How is it possible that she should become pregnant near to her menstruation. By then her ovum I suppose has just almost descended to the uterus. And if it couldnt easily before why now.

The Kollel replies:

That's a lot of questions, I'll try to answer them. 1) The semen could go up the fallopian tubes but as you rightly pointed out, not all of it gets there and some stays outside the cervix. There it is destroyed by the strong vaginal fluids but inside it can last up to 5 days according to modern science. Thus it is feasible that some of it will be ejected over this period.

2) The Gemara brings a dispute (Yevamos 35a, Kesovos 37a) as to whether a woman who is mezaneh can succeed in pushing off the semen of the bo'el. Scientifically this would be challenging but the Gemara may not be referring specifically to a physical action but rather to oral contraceptives which even existed 2000 years ago (Queen Anne's lace existed even 2000 years ago as described by Hippocrates) and which a woman would take as a "morning after" drug.

3)Not sure which Gemara you're referring to. How can a woman tell if the semen is like an arrow? She may feel it in a deeper place in such instances.

4) The blood from a wound also originates from a similar area in the body so its texture would not be so different and would need an expert to distinguish. Additionally even if we did see a different texture we might not know if there were other traces of blood from the uterus. This is why Halakha requires a definite knowledge that there is a wound and then it can be assumed that it is from there. Dam Chimud may have characteristics of both types. It is possible that we could identify these scientifically but we are not knowledgeable enough and therefore rely on Chazal's directives.

5)The question is what is "before menstruation"? It doesn't mean immediately before as then she is prohibited from relations. It must therefore mean a few days before menstruation. This would be possible in a woman with a short period of say 24 days. The ovulation is not always around the middle and could last 3-4 days and the eggs could stay fertile for an additional 24 hours so it could be say day 20-21 that a woman is fertile.

Yoel Domb

mark benson asks:

Thanks!

There seems to be a machlokes if zivas dovor lach can be felt in the uterus between the boruch taam and everyone else. What is the modern opinion. You seem to say it can.

I think that the rambam whom I think is the only one who mentions that a hargosho is her having spasms, really means that, that is what psichas harechem means and there is no 2 (3) hargoshos. This is a chiddush but sounds very plausible. I would also like to ask do women today usually feel these spasms. I would suggest that they really do. I would like to mention that the bais yosef asks if a woman sees at the end of niddos and four days later she also sees she is a zovo. But the intervening days she had no hargosho. On that the marcheshes answers once she is tomai she doesnt need any hargoshos afterwards.

I also dont really understand why she doesnt have these spasms all the time even before she is a niddah although the blood wont come out.