Hi! On Pesachim 59b, Rav Ashi objects to Rav Papa's idea (to help the metzora be able to eat korbonos that night, allow the metzora to bring his chatas, then leave the eimurim on top of the mizbeach, and burn it tomorrow after the tamid shel shachar (Rashi on amud alef) so as not to violate hashlamah.) His objection is in two parts: 1) Till the eimurim are burned, the cohanim aren't allowed to eat the chatas.
2) Till the cohanim eat the chatas (or are at least allowed to, see Tos.) the owners don't get kapparah, and aren't able to eat korbonos - so Rav Papa's method doesn't work.
The second point is a chiddush, and not so obvious, see Tos d"h yachol.
So here's my question: Rav Ashi should not need point 2) at all. If the cohanim are not allowed to eat the chatas till the eimurim are burned, and they won't be burned till the next morning - by then the chatas will be nosar and the cohanim can't eat it at all! That's a violation of lo sosiru memenu ad boker, a full lo saaseh, and it's a violation of the asei that the cohanim should eat the korbon - isn't it obvious that we wouldn't do this just so that the metzora can eat a regular korbon tonight, no more than an asei? The whole point of Rav Papa was that we can avoid any violation through his method!
Thanks,
Michoel Reach, Baltimore, MD USA
1) The Gemara in Zevachim 87a reports a question that Rava asked Rabah: If a Korban was at the top of the Mizbe'ach for the whole of the night, does this render the Korban as invalid because it was there overnight?
2) The Mirkeves ha'Mishnah on the Rambam (Hilchos Temidim u'Musafim 1:3) writes that the reason why Rav Chisda does not agree with Rav Papa (that one puts the Korban overnight on the top of the Mizbe'ach) is that Rav Chisda follows one side of Rava's question: that if one leaves the Korban overnight on the top of the Mizbe'ach, one thereby transgresses Nosar and the Korban becomes Pasul.
3) Rav Papa disagrees with Rav Chisda. Rav Papa maintains that if a Korban is left overnight at the top of the Mizbe'ach, it does not become Pasul. Therefore, one may put the Korban there and it will not become Pasul, and it follows that, according to this opinion, one does not transgress Nosar. (See Tosfos to Shabbos 114b, DH Amar Rav Yosef, and Mitzpeh Eisan there.)
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
1) I would like to clarify the above a little. What we learn from Rav Papa's Shitah is that since one is able to leave the Korban on the top of the Mizbe'ach all night long, this must mean that there is no prohibition of Nosar if one does so. This is why Rav Ashi discusses only the problem of the Kohanim not being able to eat the Korban, and as a result the owners not receiving Kaparah, but the problem of Nosar does not bother him because he accepts that it is possible to maintain that Nosar applies only when the meat is not left at the top of the Mizbe'ach.
2) In fact, Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv zt'l writes in his "He'oros" to Pesachim 59a (page 335, DH Afilu) that the dispute there about whether one may place the Korban at the top of the Mizbe'ach depends on whether one maintains that doing so removes the prohibition of Nosar. Those who prohibit doing so hold that it constitutes Nosar.
3) Before I continue, I should point out that what I wrote in my first reply in the name of the Acharonim (the Mirkeves ha'Mishnah and Mitzpeh Eisan) is in fact stated by Tosfos (Yoma 29a, DH Ela, first medium wide line). He writes that if one holds of the opinion in Zevachim 87a that leaving a Korban overnight at the top of the Mizbe'ach makes it Pasul, then one cannot agree with Rav Papa's way of thinking. However, the Mirkeves ha'Mishnah and Mitzpeh Eisan add that according to Rav Papa there is no prohibiton of Nosar involved either.
4) One final comment about what you wrote, Michoel, that it is obvious that we would not violate the Lo Sa'aseh of "Lo Sosiru" merely so that the Metzora can eat a Korban tonight. In fact, it is not obvious, because we have a rule all over Shas that a positive commandment overrides a negative commandment -- "Aseh Docheh Lo Sa'aseh." This is stated by the Minchas Chinuch (90:1, DH Ach b'Emes), who writes that even if the Halachah follows the opinion that one transgresses a Lo Sa'aseh by leaving the Korban overnight at the top of the Mizbe'ach, it still would be permitted to do so because the postive Mitzvah of eating Kodshim overrides the negative commandment of not leaving a Korban overnight.
Thank you for your answer! I am having trouble following the suggestion. I looked up the references, and (if I'm not mistaken) they are all referring to the possibility that the eimurim will become assur the next morning, or not. If they do become assur, then Rav Chisda won't suggest this procedure since it won't work in the morning.
But I didn't see anyone discussing what happens to the basar of the chatas. The Torah in Parshas Tzav says, B'yom korbono yei-ocheil, and B'yom hakrivo es zivcho yei-ocheil. According to the Mishnah in Meilah 8a, the clock for linah starts with melikah/shechitah - not zerikah, not being maaleh the eimurim, and not burning the eimurim: see Tosefos there d"h uv'linah. Does someone suggest that Rav Chisda would hold that the clock for the basar wouldn't start until the eimurim are burned, and that the cohanim could then eat that day and that night?
I am only asking this on Rav Ashi's question; the maskanah is that the cohanim can eat the basar right away, as soon as the eimurim are delayed.
Thank you,
Michoel Reach
Reb Michoel, Yasher Ko'ach Gadol for your very thorough work on this Sugya!
1) First, a technical point: I think you should have written Rav Papa instead of Rav Chisda. Rav Papa's opinion is that if one puts the Korban at the top of the Mizbe'ach, it does not become Pasul through staying there overnight, as Rashi writes, "Linah Eino Poseles b'Rosh ha'Mizbe'ach." Since this is not considered Linah, one does not transgress Nosar either.
(It is interesting to note that this rule is stated by Rashi on the very first page of Shas, in the Mishnah, Berachos 2a. Rashi there (DH Mitzvosan) writes that Korbanos become Pasul only when Amud ha'Shachar of the next morning arrives and the Korbanos are below the Mizbe'ach. This implies that if the Korban is at the top of the Mizbe'ach when Amud ha'Shachar arrives, it is not disqualified by Linah.)
2) Rav Papa on 59a is discussing Chatas, and he still says that it is not disqualified if it is at the top of the Mizbe'ach. So the discussion does not concern merely Eimurim, but also Chatas. Since Rav Papa says that it is not disqualified by Linah and Nosar since it was at the top of the Mizbe'ach overnight, it follows that one starts counting from Amud ha'Shachar and from then one has a day and night until one transgresses Nosar.
3) I found in Pirkei Avos 5:5, where the Mishnah relates that one of the miracles that happened in the Beis ha'Mikdash was that the meat of the Kodshim never rotted, that Rashi writes that when they did not have time to burn at night all the limbs, they would put them at the top of the Mizbe'ach and they would stay there for 2 or 3 days until there was time to do Haktarah. If they are on the top of the Mizbe'ach, they do not became Pasul through Linah, and a miracle occurred when the limbs did not rot all the time that they were there.
It seems that this means that the meat of the Korbanos also did not rot, and, therefore, in the case of our Gemara for example, since the Eimurim are not Pasul through Linah, the meat of the Chatas is also not disqualified as Nosar, and is still miraculously edible even 2 or 3 days later.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom