More Discussions for this daf
1. Waiting between meat and milk 2. Rambam on Milk and Meat 3. Hadachah and Kinuach- Halachah Outlines
4. Mayim Acharonim 5. Kishuf 6. Chulin 105a: Waiting between meat and milk
7. Waiting between meat and milk 8. Waiting between milk and meat 9. Insights to the Daf -- Using The Holy Name
10. WASHING 11. Measuring Salt 12. Eating Meat After Eating Cheese
13. מים מאוסים המקלחים... 14. גבינה מקיבת גמל
DAF DISCUSSIONS - CHULIN 105

Shimon asks:

In Daf 104 when she said a מלתא the Rabbis actually said back a posuk of מכשיפה לא תחיה it was written מל''ת and it became a mistake in the Gemoro, it is אסור for them to say spells. Kindly let the Rabbi know

Shimon , Crown Heights USA

The Kollel replies:

(a) That is a very clever explanation for how the Rabbis stopped the Kishuf without having to perform Kishuf themselves to do so, thank you for sharing it with us.

Of course, Rashi (here and in Shabbos 81b) does not accept that emendation and explains the Gemara as it is normally explained (i.e., the Rabbis either used a Holy Name, or else that it is permitted to use Kishuf to undo the Kishuf of others). But it is a clever explanation nonetheless.

(b) The source for your emendation is 'Ba'al Shem Tov Al ha'Torah' (Mishpatim #5), which, in turn, took it from the work Sipurim Nora'im (Rav Yakov Kadanir, of Vilkomir, Lvov 1875, towards the beginning) citing from Rav Chaim Mordechai Margoliyos, Rav of Greater Dubna and author of Sha'arei Teshuvah on OC. These sources are cited in Pri Temarim, a Satmar publication (פרי תמרים חלק כ"ד, סי' תק"כ ע' ס"ג - חלק דברי חכמים וחידותם סי' א') and in Menachem Meishiv Nefesh, Shabbos 81b.

Rav Margoliyos is quoted as saying that he actually found a very early print of the Talmud in which the word מילתא was spelled out when referring to what the woman said, but when referring to what the Chachamim said it is written without an Alef at the end and with dots above it denoting that it is an abbreviation. This would confirm the Ba'al Shem Tov's Girsa!

(c) Today we have access, Baruch Hash-m, to all of the old prints of the Talmud as well as many manuscripts - at the tap of a finger, thanks to the Friedberg online Bavli manuscript library (https://bavli.genizah.org/ResultPages/Difference). A quick investigation reveals that in the early Shas printed in Venice 1520 (ר"פ), Chulin 105b, indeed when the witch says Milsa it is printed with an Alef, but when the Chachamim say it, it is not!

However, a more careful examination reveals that there is no manuscript or print (in Chulin or in Shabbos) that spells Milsa without the Yud (or that has dots on top to denote Roshei Teivos). Rather, whenever Milsa is spelled without an Alef, there is a "streichel" on top of the word to denote the missing letter at the end, as is commonplace in old Sefarim. In fact, when the same story appears in Shabbos 81b, that very Venice print reversed the 'abbreviated Milsa' and puts the 'streichel' in the word that the witch says, but spells out in full what the Chachamim said.

All of the other manuscripts, as well as the Soncino (1431) print of the Shas, have the 'streichel' both times the word appears.

(d) The Pri Temarim cites others, quoting the Sar Shalom of Belz who heard from the Magid of Kozhnitz that one doesn't to erase the Yud Alef of Milsa; it stands for Ani Hash-m (which is not part of the verse, but might be part of the incantation that prevents Kishuf).

My friend, Reb Elimelech Meisels, suggested that the Yud Alef is the Gematria of the Sofei Teivos of the Pasuk מכשיפה לא תחיה!

(e) I did find one interesting thing in the manuscripts. In a solitary manuscript (Munich #95 - only in Chulin, not in Shabbos), the witch 'אמרה מידי'. The word Milsa is not used when discussing what she says, although it is used when referring to what the Chachamim say. This might explain what Rashi comments in Shabbos 81b. Let me explain.

Rashi in Chulin gives two explanations for what the Chachamim said:

1. They 'undid' Kishuf with Kishuf;

2. They used a Shem Kodesh.

Rashi refutes the second explanation because לא מוכחא מילתא. I think he means that the word 'Milsa' would not seem to mean a Shem Kodesh, since it is the very word used to describe what the woman said!

However, Rashi in Shabbos indeed explains that the Chachamim used a Shem Taharah. How would he answer the question that he himself asks in Chulin? Perhaps in his version of the Gemara in Shabbos, the woman said מידי (not מילתא), and the Chachamim were the ones that said מילתא - so they can be referring to two different words! (In Rashi's gloss there, he cites the woman as saying מילתא - however, that may be a printer's error based on the current Girsa'os of the Gemara.)

Nevertheless, I think another answer for the Rashi in Shabbos is more plausible, after noting that Rashi calls the Holy Name a "Shem Taharah". He might mean that Kishuf is also performed by using a Shem - a Shem Tum'ah (see Rashi Bereishis 25:6 - see Da'as Zekeinim - and more explicitly in Rashi Yeshayah 25:6). Thus, both what the woman said and what the Chachamim said was a Shem, so they both can be referred to as Milsa.

Best regards,

Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld

Kollel Iyun Hadaf

Shmuel adds:

Great shtickel.

See Rosh Yosef and Tiferes Yakov on Rashi's words "ולא מוכחא מילתא"

Shmuel