More Discussions for this daf
1. A Sukah built too high 2. Calling a Pesach "a Pesach" 3. Eruvin chart #1: THE FOUR DOMAINS OF SHABBOS
4. Lechi alternatives 5. What does tos. d"h d'csiv saying 6. Curtains (from Point by Point Outline of the Daf)
7. "Pesach Ohel Mo'ed" 8. Mechitzah ha'Mafsik or ha'Mukaf 9. The Tzuras ha'Pesach of the Heichal
10. A general question about modern Eruvin 11. Pesukim cited in the Gemara that do not exist 12. Techumim (the distance of walking out of town)
13. Heichal V.S. Ulam 14. אל פתח אולם הבית לפי רש"י 15. נר חנוכה למעלה מכ'
DAF DISCUSSIONS - ERUVIN 2

Moshe White asked:

Why isn't the fact that the mishna calls the opening to the heichal/ulam a pesach enough for our din deraban of mavui? i.e. why does the gemarah need to find a passuk that calls it a pesach?

At the end of the gemarah it's clear that in shitas R' Yehuda you can utilize a "pok chazi" of how high pesachim are practically w/o a gilui from the kra, but shitas chachachim remains that you need a ra'ayah from a passuk to what is considered a pesach - and what was the hava amina in R' Yehuda?

Moshe White, Edmonton, Canada

The Kollel replies:

Actually, the Tosfos ha'Rosh explains that according to the Gemara's conclusion, Rebbi Yehudah is not learning the definition of a doorway from the doorways of local palaces, but from the verse in Esther which refers to the doorway of Achashverosh's palace as a "Pesach!" Apparently, just because we call something a doorway, doesn't make it a Halachic doorway.

As far as I understand your question, you want to know how a Rabbinic institution of Korah or Lechi is connected to what the Torah calls a doorway; after all, the requirement is only mid'Rabanan?

If this is your question, the answer seems to be as follows.

The Torah only requires three walls for a Reshus ha'Yachid. In the case of a Mavoy, the Rabanan instituted that a fourth wall is required. Halachically, a wall need not be solid. Anything that can be described as a "doorway" (Pesach) is just as good as a solid wall, Halachically. However, a wall which is breached all the way across (i.e. there is no wall there at all), cannot be defined as a "doorway" according to Halachah.

The Takanah of Lechi and Korah is as follows. Normally a Tzuras ha'Pesach would be required to make this side of the Mavoy into a "doorway." However, the Rabanan instituted that a Lechi or Korah will suffice for our purposes to make it into a doorway. (See Gaon Yakov)

Since it is clear that the end result must be that the fourth side become what is considered by the Torah a doorway, therefore it is proper to look for verses that define doorways. The Rabbinic part of this institution is that a Lechi or Korah will suffice to make it into a doorway, and a full Tzuras ha'Pesach is not required, but a doorway it must be.

I hope this makes things a bit clearer.

Best regards from Rav Moshe Cohen, of our Kollel.

Gemar Chasimah Tovah,

M. KORNFELD

Charbit Jonathan responds:

Shalom,

In your answer, you wrote: " Anything that can be described as a "doorway" (Pesach) is just as good as a solid wall, Halachically."

Are there other Halachot, except for Mavoy, where a "doorway" (Pesach) is considered as a solid wall?

Maybe in Succot? A Succa with three doorways instead of three walls is Kosher?

Maybe a Rechut Hayachid? A Rechut Hayachid with three doorways and no walls is a Rechut Hayachid? In this case, will we have a Machloket between R. Yehouda and Hachamim?

Regards,

Jonathan, Tal Menache, ISRAEL.

The Kollel replies:

(a) A doorway is considered a wall for Shabbos as well.

However, there are exceptions to the general rule that a doorway is equivalent to a wall. For example, if Parutz Merubah Al ha'Omed, i.e. there is less solid wall than open area, even if the open area is bounded by a Tzuras ha'Pesach it does not count as a wall, according to some Poskim, as the Gemara discusses on 11a. On the other hand, there are Poskim who maintain that a Tzuras ha'Pesach can indeed make up all four walls of a Reshus ha'Yachid (see Tosfos there DH Ileima). This is the opinion we rely on when we carry with an "Eruv." (We are used to calling it an "Eruv," but it is actually a Tzuras ha'Pesach plus and Eruv Chatzeros.)

This has no bearing on the argument between Rebbi Yehuda and Chachamim that you refer to (see Eruvin 6b) regarding whether a Reshus ha'Yachid needs 2 or 3 walls. According to both Rebbi Yehudah and the Chachamim, those "walls" may consist of a Tzuras ha'Pesach.

(b) Regarding Sukah, there is indeed an opinion that Tzuras ha'Pesach helps in the same manner as Shabbos, and four Tzuras ha'Pesach's can make a Sukah (Sukah 5b)

However, the Halachic opinion maintains that there is a Halachah l'Moshe mi'Sinai that a Sukah must have two solid walls plus a third short wall (Sukah 5b). A Tzuras ha'Pesach will not suffice for the third and fourth walls due to this Halachah l'Moshe mi'Sinai. However, a Tzuras ha'Pesach will certainly help for doors in the first and second walls, as long as there is more solid wall than door.

M. Kornfeld