More Discussions for this daf
1. Korbonos of Nochrim 2. Checking for a Mum 3. Tereifah in the Teivah
4. בגליל 5. לא קאי איניש אדעתיה דרביה עד ארבעין שנין
DAF DISCUSSIONS - AVODAH ZARAH 5

Chaim Sinai Orbach asks:

The gemoroh asks if perhaps we need "es kol hachai" to teach that a Treifa is not allowed into the Teiva.

a) How could Noach have possibly known if an animal was a treifa or not?

b) Why MUST we learn that a treifa is no good? If there is no other possuk then what would be wrong with allowing a treifa? ...and if it's "al pi sevoroh" why must I have a posuk?

c) Why is this not a kasha according to the previous gemoroh since this would mean that a treifa is no good for a ben noach korbon. In that case, they should have needed much more than 3 days to find an appropriate animal.

Thank you very much

Kol Tuv!

Chaim S. Orbach, Lakewood, NJ

The Kollel replies:

(a)

1. See Rashi to Bereshis 7:2, who writes that we learn from the fact that Noach brought in 7 pairs of pure animals that Noach learned Torah, because otherwise he could not have known which animals were Kosher since at that time no one had been commanded yet not to eat Tamei animals (see Mizrachi on Rashi there). According to this, we may say that since Noach learned Torah he also knew which animals were Tereifah.

2. Here is another suggestion for how Noach knew which animals were Tereifah. The reason it is necessary to say this explanation is that the Gemara in Avodah Zarah (9a) teaches that the world lasts for 6,000 years. The first 2,000 were years of Tohu (chaos), and the next 2,000 were years of Torah. The Chazon Ish (Yoreh Deah 5:3, DH v'Af) writes that this teaches that in these 2,000 years of Torah, the Dinim of Tereifos for all generations had to be fixed. Accordingly, it would seem somewhat difficult to say that Noach, who lived before these 2,000 years of Torah, would be expert in all of the laws of Tereifos. While he knew which species of animals the Torah permitted and prohibited, it is difficult to understand how he could have known all laws of Tereifos, since the Gemara in Chulin (end of 42a) teaches that 18 kinds of Tereifos were told to Moshe on Har Sinai. How did Noach know all about that?

3. Therefore, I suggest that when the Gemara (Avodah Zarah 5b) refers to Tereifah, it has a slightly different defintion of Tereifah. This might be more similar to the definition of Tereifah given by the Rambam in Hilchos Rotze'ach 2:8. The Rambam writes that if someone kills a person who is a "Tereifah," he is exempt from the capital penalty administered by the Sanhedrin. It is assumed that every person is a Shalem ("complete," healthy person, not a Tereifah) unless it is known with certainty that he is a Tereifah, such as when the doctors say that he possesses a condition for which there is no cure and he will surely die from it if he does not die from something else first.

4. We learn from the Rambam that there is a definition of Tereifah which can depend on a medical opinion that he possesses an illness from which it is impossible to recover. The Rambam uses this definition only when discussing a human being who was murdered. In contrast, when we discuss animals which are permitted for us to eat, the definition depends on the Dinim that were given to Moshe at Sinai.

5. My suggestion is that in the time of Noach, the definition of Tereifah for animals might have been similar to the definition of Tereifah for humans now. Therefore, it might not have been necessary for Noach to be expert in the laws of Tereifos, but if he could see from his knowledge of animal physiology that the animal that he was considering taking with him into the Teivah was not healthy enough to survive until after the Flood, then he would not take it.

6. I subsequently found a different answer to this question (a) in the Toras Chaim on Avodah Zarah (6a, DH v'Dilma).

He writes that in the early generations, it was certainly possible to discern -- even when the animal was alive -- whether or not it is a Tereifah. Even in later times they were able to know this, as the Sefer Chasidim and Tashbatz write, that there are several signs and experiments that exist to make it possible to know whether a live animal is a Tereifah or not. The Toras Chaim writes that certainly Noach, who was a Navi, a great Sage and expert concerning all the creatures under Heaven, would be able to know this.

The Toras Chaim is referring to what is written by the Darchei Moshe (the Rema) on the Tur, Yoreh Deah 35:1, that he found in the name of Rebbi Yehudah ha'Chasid (the author of Sefer Chasidim), that one should pass one's hand and feel the animal when it is still alive. If this causes the animal to become lower in the direction of the ground, this shows that it is Kosher, but if not, it is Tereifah.

The source for this is the Tashbatz Katan #556. This was written by a Talmid of the Maharam of Rotenburg (the teacher of the Rosh and the Mordechai) who was imprisoned for many years by the German king. The Talmid wrote down many Halachos that he heard from the Maharam when he was in jail. This particular Halachah was one the Maharam heard from Rebbi Yehudah ha'Chasid. He adds that one should pass ones hand over the back of the animal and if the back lowers under the hand this proves it is Kosher.

The Darchei Moshe writes that in practice one should not rely on this method as a way of checking the lung. However, the Toras Chaim maintains that the Sefer Chasidim, and certainly Noach who was a great Chacham, were capable of doing this test.

This explains how Noach knew if the animal was a treifah even when it was alive.

(See also Maharsham in Da'as Torah, on Hilchos Shechitah and Tereifos, in the opening to Hilchos Tereifos #47.)

(b)

1. I saw Tosfos Rabeinu Elchanan here, who is cited as saying that the reason why the verse teaches that is was not permitted to bring Tereifah animals into the Teivah was because a Tereifah cannot live a long time. Since Hash-m ordered animals to enter the Teivah in order to ensure that the animal kingdom would survive, it follows that a Tereifah could not ensure the survival of the species because it might die before it produced offspring. Therefore, only healthy animals were good candidates to enter the Teivah, not Tereifos.

2. Tosfos Rabeinu Elchanan (5b, DH Hai) cited above says that "Ikar Kra l'Kiyum ha'Olam Asa" -- the verse is teaching one was needed to repopulate the world. A Tereifah would not enable the world to survive. (By the way, I found that the Rashash (5b, DH Gemara) also discusses whether the verse excludes Tereifah because a Tereifah cannot ensure the continuation of the species.)

It appears to me that it was necessary for Noach to be told that a Tereifah is invalid, because otherwise he would not have known that a Tereifah animal cannot keep the world going. There are various opinions about how long a Tereifah can live. In Chulin (end of 57b), one opinion says that many Tereifos survive for 2 or 3 years. In addition, Noach did not know how long the Mabul would last. Maybe it would last less than a year? Therefore, when Noach was told that he must not take Tereifah animals with him, this was informing him of 2 facts: (a) the flood would last 12 months, (b) a Tereifah cannot live for 12 months.

Therefore to ensure that the world could survive, it was crucial that Noach should not take Tereifah animals with him on the Teivah.

(c) It should not take that long to find an apporopiate animal since there is a rule that "Rov Beheimos Kesheiros" (the majority of animals are Kosher, not Tereifah; see Chullin 11a). Therefore, if one did not know whether or not the animal was a Tereifah, one would be allowed to rely on the majority and assume it is Kosher unless one noticed a clear sign of Tereifah in the animal.

Dovid Bloom