More Discussions for this daf
1. Mumar 2. Christianity 3. Stam Yeinam
DAF DISCUSSIONS - AVODAH ZARAH 57

David Goldman asks:

Greetings. Given the fact that we have sources such as Rashi, Tosafos, Meiri and Rema who make distinctions between the Christian religion and ancient avoda zarah with regard to yayin stam and yayin nesach, this has importance implications. First, it should be assumed that voluntary shmad to Christianity is not worse than to Islam, and yehareg ve-al yaavor should not be obligatory. Second, it should clearly not be prohibited to enter a church any more than it is to enter a mosque (as was the case recently of the daughter and son-in-law of President Trump). Rambam has the view that also that these religions are meant to get the gentiles to accept Hash-m. However, we know that the God of Christianity and of Islam are each not the same as Hash-m. Hash-m did not send new prophets or his "son" or invalidate the laws of the Torah or send new books. So how can Rambam say that their religions get the gentiles used to a belief in Hash-m? Thanks.

David Goldman, USA

The Kollel replies:

David, Shalom u'Verachah!

1) It is well known that during the Spanish Inquisition many holy Jews died at the stake, because this was Yehareg v'Al Ya'avor.

2) The Rambam writes in his commentary on the Mishnah (Avodah Zarah 11b) that we live in their lands, and it is almost forbidden for us even to look at their houses of Avodah Zarah, and certainly we may not enter them.

3) The Rambam (Hilchos Melachim 11:4) writes that Yeshu ha'Notzri caused Yisrael to be destroyed by the sword, be scattered and humiliated, and he led astray most of the world into worshipping a god other than Hash-m. Nevertheless, this does prepare the way for the true Mashi'ach to come. This is because the world has now become full of the idea that the Mashi'ach will come, and the words of Torah and Mitzvos have been publicised internationally. The nations do not know how to understand the Torah properly, but when the true Mashi'ach arrives, they will return and understand that they received a false belief from their fathers.

4) So these other religions, even though they are false, have nevertheless enabled the true Torah to be spread all over the world. At the moment, most of the people in the world do not understand it, but when the Mashi'ach comes everyone will believe in the true Torah.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom

P.S. David, I get a Mazal Tov! My daughter became a Kallah!

David Goldman asks:

Thank you. First a hearty mazel tov on the shidduch of your daughter!

I am aware of what happened in Spain. However, if in fact Rashi, Tosafos, the Meiri and Rema are explaining that Christianity is not really avoda zarah, then the kiddush Hashem in Spain etc. was not necessary according to them, because yehareg ve'al yaavor simply would not apply.

Secondly, since the Christians believe in a "second coming" of a messiah who WILL NOT fulfill the role of the Jewish messiah, what is the special benefit? I don't understand Rambam. The return of Yoyzel means that all the people will believe in Christianity, and has nothing at all to do with the role of the Jewish Mashiach. Certainly Rambam knew this. Similarly, Islam does not play this role at all because they do not believe in a coming of a messiah except slightly according to the Shia, which Rambam was not referring to. In any event, if Christianity and Islam are not truly avoda zarah, then there is no problem going into a church or mosque at all. Thus the concern about what Trump's daughter and son-in-law did was not a problem at all.

The Kollel replies:

I am unsure of which statements of Rashi and Tosfos you are referring to, but I assume that the Rema you cite is in Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 156. He writes there that nowadays, when one causes Nochrim to take an oath, this is not considered as putting a stumbling block in front of the blind. This is because even though they mention their Avodah Zarah in their oaths, they also mention the Creator of Heaven and Earth. This is a partnership of Avodah Zarah together with genuine belief, and we do not find that Nochrim are commanded against such a partnership.

I would say that, on the contrary, one sees from the Rema that their religion is Avodah Zarah, and is strictly forbiden as Yehareg v'Al Ya'avor for Jews. The only Heter of the Rema is that the oath is not forbidden to them because it is combined with the true religion.

The crucial part of the Rambam in Hilchos Melachim 11:4 is his statement that the whole world has already been filled with the words of the Torah and the words of the Mitzvos. These matters have spread even to the distant islands and to ignorant peoples, who now discuss these ideas and the commandments of the Torah. The main thing is that the awareness of the Mitzvos of the Torah has spread throughout the whole world by the fact that so many people now have some knowledge of Chumash and Tanach. The Rambam does not mean to say that there is any truth in the other religions, but rather that the effect that they have had is to spread some knowledge of the genuine Torah. Then, when the real Mashi'ach comes, people will already know something about the Torah so the way will be prepared for the Mashi'ach to show everyone how false their old beliefs were. They will now be ready to accept the truth of the Torah of Yisrael.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom